Diving Accident, Self-Responsibility and Balance

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If you go in shock, yeah, resources will be drawn to the core/vitals and away from the extremities, but not in the initial phase of the fight or flight response.
Wrong. Shock can make cyanosis happen, but so can so many other factors. Panic is a well-known one. It doesn't occur in everyone, but has been documented and proven to cause cyanosis.

If it's just shock or respiratory distress, then why do people become cyanotic when they're cold? Answer: because the body directed blood flow to where it is needed. Just like in the panic reaction.

We seek air when we panic underwater (good response).
Wrong again. We seek ESCAPE when we panic underwater. Escape can be from the swimthrough you just lodged yourself into, the shark that just cruised by, or to the air you just ran out of. Air is not the objective. Escape is.
 
Thea

You are incredibly brave to share this experience on this board and to take on the chin the comments that have been made. I am truly glad that you are now OK and wish you many happy years of this wonderful sport that we have been lucky enough to enjoy.

I know that this will seem very harsh....however you say that you have no medical issues ....but you admit that you are 40lbs overweight and you smoke ......these are medical issues that will impact on your health and wellbeing even if you never dive again. To do such a physically challenging sport on holiday at 49 : not old by any means and younger than myself, without a regular buddy , having had a few too many the night before but with these issues is just an accident waiting to happen. Please try to quit smoking and get as much of that weight off as possible. The second thing is to consider some of your own equipment ...your buoyancy and control is so much better with your own BCD and a wetsuit that fits you properly...also an SMB is something you might really want to consider...as well as fins that are not split.

Very best wishes
 
Panic is a well-known one. It doesn't occur in everyone, but has been documented and proven to cause cyanosis.

B.S.

As to the rest, we seek Escape to AIR (correct survival response)

We have basically two brains.

Stimulus reaches the primitive brain a fraction of a moment before the less primitive brain (newer though in evolutionary terms), but both brains receive the same stimulus.

If the primitive brain deems no action is required, then no fight or flight response (the less primitive brain response carries on, generally an externally learned response from the external learning methods we are accustomed to).

If the primitive brain deems a response is required, it will take over (also having received the stimulus first) and the less primitive part of the brain is inhibited.

Stimulus - response - reward - re-enforcement (but two brains basically).

Theas' panic (the fight or flight response) helped her survive.

---------- Post added February 27th, 2014 at 03:56 PM ----------

You are right and wrong at the same time. It is called the Bohr effect or left shift of the oxygen dissociation curve.
Hyperventilation syndrome - Pathogenesis and pathophysiology
https://thebreathingman.wordpress.com/article/bohr-effect-202i29i90v7sn-4/

I understand alkalosys (from hyperventilation reducing blood CO2) causes vasoconstriction in the brain and cerebral hypoxia (but not cyanosis of the extremities).
 
The second thing is to consider some of your own
equipment ...your buoyancy and control is so much better with your own BCD and a wetsuit that fits you properly...also an SMB is something you might really want
to consider...as well as fins that are not split.
I think she’s been beat enough over the weight. She’s acknowledged this.

I do second the other part. Having your own gear means you’re familiar with it; no fumbling with the weight belt, no struggling with the inflator.

Split fins are fine. Many divers use them. She just needs to be aware that they may not function well in certain conditions.



You can say it’s BS, but the science is there. DoctorMike posted the link to it already. This is scientifically proven to occur- not in every case, but enough to matter.

I’ve shown you how it occurs. You have yet to say or do anything except act like a child and whine that it is BS.

Grow up and try to say something more intelligent.

As to the rest, we seek Escape to AIR (correct survival response)

Wrong. Even a panicked diver at the surface shows this to be false. You can have an active panic, which one characteristic is high finning; they are attempting to escape the water. You can also have a passive panic, where they do nothing, and can even slip back underwater. If your theory was right, and it is not, they would be fine on the surface, because they have air, and a passive panicked diver would never slip back underwater.

You need to take a Stress and Rescue class. You would learn so much.

We have basically two brains. Stimulus reaches the primitive brain a fraction of a moment before the less primitive brain (newer though in evolutionary terms), but both brains receive the same stimulus. If the primitive brain deems no action is required, then no fight or flight response (the less primitive brain response carries on, generally an externally learned response through external learning methods we are accustomed to). If the primitive brain deems a response is required, it will take over (also having received the stimulus first) and the less primitive part of the brain is inhibited. Stimulus - response - reward- re-enforcement (but two brains basically).
Wrong. The Panic instinct can be successfully over-ridden and stopped. Ask anyone who has been in high-stress environments before.

The panic response is also not about reward and reenforcement. It is a instinct present in everyone. But, like every instinct, it can be controlled. At no time is a person's higher level thinking overriden. They can still think, it just appears that the panic reaction is the best choice. If you were right, there would be no hope of controlling panic; anyone in stress would panic. The fact that people like firefighters, police, Soldiers, and anyone who experiences high stress can control it and respond appropraitely shows the mistake in what you believe.

The panic response can strike anywhere; underwater or at the surface. The over-riding urge is not get to air, because the diver has air, especially at the surface. The urge is to ESCAPE THE STRESSOR. With training and experience, stress can be controlled, and active panic stopped. It is about establishing that thinking and problem solving pattern again.

Theas' panic (the fight or flight response) helped her survive.
WOW.

There is so much about that that is wrong. I can't believe you wrote that. Again, You need to take a Stress and Rescue class. You would learn so much.

Her panic almost killed her. It compelled her to make an uncontrolled ascent. It prevented her from properly dropping her weights and inflating her BCD. It prompted her to remove and discard her regulator. It dicated a response that could have been fatal if not for the intervention of nearby divers- who did not panic.

Panic NEVER helps to survive in the water. It blocks the rational thought, focuses on ineffective solutions. It wears you out, depletes your resources in a frantic attempt to escape the water, and causes death. By your (il)logic, every diver in trouble should just panic and shoot to the surface like she did. The better response is a rational problem solving one that identifies the problem and a solution, followed by a controlled ascent, and positive bouyancy. Instead; panic dictates a rapid, uncontrolled ascent and flailing around the surface, often without the regulator or mask, trying to escape the water...until someone rescues them or they die.

Stress and Rescue classes focus on PREVENTING panic. There is a very good reason for that. Panic kills. It NEVER helps.

NEVER.
 
You can say it’s BS, but the science is there. DoctorMike posted the link to it already. This is scientifically proven to occur- not in every case, but enough to matter.

Always happy to learn something new, and if there is peer reviewed scientific research which shows that people go blue because of panic, I am happy to accept it. I never knew that and no one mentioned it in all my First Aid training across various disciplines.

I'd like to apologise, but I must have missed DoctorMike link and I'd like to read the research first.

Can you please point me to it?
 
Suddenly, a diver surfaced in front of me. I said "are you a dive master?" he said no, just a diver.

Reading the OP now, I had to stop here and say that this makes me laugh pretty hard, not sure why. Continuing the reading now...

lol
 
I have seen your last two post Thea. Well done, you got it right. Take care and good luck.
 
Always happy to learn something new, and if there is peer reviewed scientific research which shows that people go blue because of panic, I am happy to accept it. I never knew that and no one mentioned it in all my First Aid training across various disciplines.

I'd like to apologise, but I must have missed DoctorMike link and I'd like to read the research first.

Can you please point me to it?
I was wrong on his name on the link.

Regardless, what I posted stands about how panic can cause cyanosis. I await a more thought-out response than an immature “BS” and “panic saved her life”.

Interestingly, in re-reading this thread, you first thought that she didn't panic. Now you think that's what saved her life?
 
I was wrong on his name on the link.

Regardless, what I posted stands about how panic can cause cyanosis. I await a more thought-out response than an immature “BS” and “panic saved her life”.

Interestingly, in re-reading this thread, you first thought that she didn't panic. Now you think that's what saved her life?

I read the link which Tony Chaney posted.

It is not peer reviewed scientific research and in any event it does not conclude that panic attack cause cyanosis or that cyanosis is a symptom of panic attacks.

It is an online tool which purports to show some statistics drawn from a database of short of 5000 people who have a number of disorders and take a number of medications (generally these disorders are psychiatric and the medications are antidepresseant and anxiety reducing drugs like benzos).

Basically, 0.5% or so from this group self-report cyanosis.

I am not saying it should be disregarded entirely, and it is interesting, but there is no scientific proper study and 0.5% is neither here nor there.

There are peer reviewed scientific studies which are published and are quite definitive and they show that hyperventilantion reduces CO2 in the blood and changes its ph and in turn this in the brain causes vasoconstriction and hypoxia (but no cyanosis).

Really interesting stuff, and I am keen to learn about how excessive CO2 in the blood (i.e. CO2 retention induced by UBA with poor WOB) and consequent ph change affects the heart (Chinese Medicine indicates it causes fibrillation).

However, my internet friend, respectfully, cyanosis is not a symptom of panic or hyperventialtion.

Thea had both cyanosis and low oxymeter readings one confirming the other, and this points to low O2 in the blood (which you do not get from panic or panic induced hyperventilation).
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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