Diving Accident, Self-Responsibility and Balance

[Duke Dive Medicine]

I know. My sister told me another medical analogy as well. "When you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras."

She displayed EVERY sign of a panic attack. It fits PERFECTLY. It explains EVERY symptom. It is the most likely cause, and I see no evidence for her magical EIB. She's using that as a crutch to escape blame for panicking.

She he should be medically examined, if only to see if she has COPD from smoking. But until then, I'm going with the best fit and most likely cause. Panic Attack.

Heard that one too, and before you talk about horses and zebras, you have to know your taxonomy. From her description, she is at high risk not only for COPD but also lung cancer, diabetes, coronary artery disease, peripheral vascular disease and hypertension, among other things. Your sister may be able to provide you with more information on this diver's potential medical issues.

I'm not arguing against a panic attack... I think it's quite possible. It's helpful to remember, though, that you are basing your opinion entirely on what the OP has written in this thread (unless she's PM'd you her medical and social history - if so I apologize). If you drill down, you often discover information that's not in an initial report, which is why it's imprudent at best to draw a hard conclusion without a thorough investigation, especially if that conclusion involves directing an individual who may need medical attention away from that attention. I'm glad to hear you advocating that she be seen by a physician.

Best regards,
DDM

 

[MrChen]

You're saying there is only two ways to teach adults. I disagree. You can use positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, and then an approach that involves teaching adults and using their motivation and willingness to learn.

Adults generally do not respond well to negative reinforcement, and quickly tire of positive reinforcement. However, engaging them and using their motivation and eagerness to learn the materials is what gets the best results. Remember, everyone who signs up for a scuba class is there because they want to be there, not because they have to be.

As for my approach, I am hard on her for a reason. Years ago, when I wanted to become an NCO, the crusty sergeant who supervised me came over and asked, "How do you take care of Soldier's?" I hemmed and hawed, and gave some BS answer about making sure they were well-paid and their families are taking care of and they were happy.

He told me, in no uncertain terms, I was wrong. You take care of Soldiers by ensuring they are well-trained, and can perform their jobs under fire. Otherwise, they will likely die, and everything you did for their families will be meaningless.

Being softy on her will not accomplish anything. She will not listen. But, it has been the tough approach that has made her start to admit her panic.

TC, people are fighting you because you are using negative reinforcement, she isn't a soldier and is here because she wants to be. It's up to her if she wants to listen and no level of negative reinforcement is going to change her, just run her off and resolve nothing. Sounds to me like you have a little too much BS soldier left in you and are trying to apply it to the civilian world on an online forum of all places. I'm a vet and I wouldn't take an ounce of that BS on this side of the fence. Did she ask you to beat her down and rebuild her confidence, so why make it your NCO mission to do so? It's a bullish behavior that is becoming less and less acceptable in our society. It's up to her decide who to listen to and she has every right not to listen at all. Your tactics worked in the service because your soldiers had no choice. I have a saying for you, since you love metaphors so much, "You can lead a horse to water...", I'm sure you know the rest since you are so adept at using them to justify your bullish disposition.

Was she panicked? If I couldn't breath, I'd be panicked all to hell too. Another saying for you, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did her problem start because of panic or did she panic because of her problem, it's a question that will probably never have an answer. So Thea, you can admit you panicked, either way it doesn't produce a solid answer. Lets leave the medical diagnosis to the doctors.

What can be learned here? Don't rely on DM's, always have a buddy, know your limits, stay healthy, don't let this discourage you from diving, stop smoking, exercise, don't self diagnose on the internet, don't let others diagnose you on the internet, etc.

FWIW, I think the rescuers did an excellent job in the water of staying calm and getting you back to the boat. My hats off to them for remaining calm and taking action.

 

[Thea Strassburg]

Ouch. I do however understand what TC and flots are saying, at least the emotion behind it. I feel horrible about what the boat crew went through, the other divers, my husband. Seriously horrible. I apologized to them then, and I plan on doing so in writing as well.

I apologize as well for the OP. I was and still am trying to deal with this event. At the time of the OP, it was still so very fresh in my mind. It all felt so... BIG. It was not an objective account of what happened, more my own need to somehow make myself feel better by reaching out. Too emotionally charged though.
Thank you again, I really do understand.

 

[Peter69_56]

Ouch. I do however understand what TC and flots are saying, at least the emotion behind it. I feel horrible about what the boat crew went through, the other divers, my husband. Seriously horrible. I apologized to them then, and I plan on doing so in writing as well.

I apologize as well for the OP. I was and still am trying to deal with this event. At the time of the OP, it was still so very fresh in my mind. It all felt so... BIG. It was not an objective account of what happened, more my own need to somehow make myself feel better by reaching out. Too emotionally charged though.
Thank you again, I really do understand.

Thea,

Its a huge event for you. Your healing process has started by your first post. Now you need to learn from it and from everyone's advice where you can but most of all, move on with yourself, your life and diving. I would think we all hope this is but a ripple in your life and you move on and find diving the pleasure you were hoping it to be.

Have your health checked and then make the decision to either dive or not dive, either way, life is too short to be stuck pouring over and over what happened and might have happened.

Examine the detail, understand it and move on. You have a whole life to live and enjoy, don't waste it on beating yourself silly. What happened, happened and that cant be changed, you can change the future but not the past, no matter how much you look back on it. Learn from it but don't burden yourself with any guilt or worry or stress, it wont help.

We have all learned a bit about the event and also about ourselves in some way. Time to move on and enjoy each day we have.

 

[Thea Strassburg]

"What can be learned here? Don't rely on DM's, always have a buddy, know your limits, stay healthy, don't let this discourage you from diving, stop smoking, exercise, don't self diagnose on the internet, don't let others diagnose you on the internet, etc.

FWIW, I think the rescuers did an excellent job in the water of staying calm and getting you back to the boat. My hats off to them for remaining calm and taking action."

I am in complete agreement, lesson learned, and the rescuers went above and beyond. I read and learned all these posts and they have

TOTALLY altered my view of what happened that day. I have no one to blame but myself. And believe me, I am pretty sure that no one wants

this to occur again more than me. I should have had a physical prior to diving, I should have taken a refresher course before diving, I should

have asked one of the other divers to buddy up and I should have known that the DM's are there to get you on the boat and take you to a dive

site, nothing else. I am grateful though, that these DM's were so well trained and so caring that they helped me when I really needed it.

I also learned, not to post in the midst of a very emotional time. My perspective was skewed, it had happened so recently.

 

[DandyDon]

Thea, you're taking all this criticism pretty well.

Hope you can discard the assaults and learn from the best suggestions.

 

[Mike]

"What can be learned here? Don't rely on DM's, always have a buddy, know your limits, stay healthy, don't let this discourage you from diving, stop smoking, exercise, don't self diagnose on the internet, don't let others diagnose you on the internet, etc.

FWIW, I think the rescuers did an excellent job in the water of staying calm and getting you back to the boat. My hats off to them for remaining calm and taking action."

I am in complete agreement, lesson learned, and the rescuers went above and beyond. I read and learned all these posts and they have

TOTALLY altered my view of what happened that day. I have no one to blame but myself. And believe me, I am pretty sure that no one wants

this to occur again more than me. I should have had a physical prior to diving, I should have taken a refresher course before diving, I should

have asked one of the other divers to buddy up and I should have known that the DM's are there to get you on the boat and take you to a dive

site, nothing else. I am grateful though, that these DM's were so well trained and so caring that they helped me when I really needed it.

I also learned, not to post in the midst of a very emotional time. My perspective was skewed, it had happened so recently.

There is more than one person who is in a similar situation and will read this thread and it can act us a wake up call to them also, so your experience and journey is going to live on and benefit other people.

 

[flots am]

She displayed EVERY sign of a panic attack. It fits PERFECTLY. It explains EVERY symptom. It is the most likely cause, and I see no evidence for her magical EIB. She's using that as a crutch to escape blame for panicking.

She he should be medically examined, if only to see if she has COPD from smoking. But until then, I'm going with the best fit and most likely cause. Panic Attack.

I just wanted to mention to Thea, that panic in SCUBA is relatively common. In fact, panic is probably the most common "bad thing" that happens.

Panic can come from a number of small, un-handled, stresses that build up, or one or two big things. In case you missed the link, this is actually a good explanation, although not a replacement for a good S&R class.

Panic is not a sign of weakness or mental defect, it's caused by not knowing what to look for, not recognizing what's happening and not handling it properly and/or quickly enough.

Anybody can panic if given the right combination of stress and biology. And they do.

My personal recommendation (as it was way at the beginning of the thread) is still to take a good Diver Stress & Rescue class, that emphasizes recognizing stress and dealing with it before it becomes a problem.

flots.

PS. Most of the people here who are giving you a hard time have either panicked or been involved with rescuing a paniced diver. It's not pleasant or risk-free from either side of the issue, so we're mostly trying to prevent you from going through it again.

It would be awful if you self diagnosed with <whatever>, went to the doctor who couldn't find evidence of it, then went diving and had it happen again.

 

[doctormike]

"What can be learned here? Don't rely on DM's, always have a buddy, know your limits, stay healthy, don't let this discourage you from diving, stop smoking, exercise, don't self diagnose on the internet, don't let others diagnose you on the internet, etc.

Also, remember the lessons about things that happened before you developed respiratory symptoms. Some of the mistakes to learn from can't be ascribed to your possible EIB distress, they happened on the part of the dive when you said that you were "having a blast": don't go into an overhead environment without training, don't grab the reef to either move forward or to prevent an ascent.

I should have had a physical prior to diving

Just remember that if your hypothesis is correct (that this was primarily caused by your first episode of EIB) a regular physical exam would not have picked that up. And just going to a regular doctor for a physical now won't "clear" you for the future. Remember, EIB happens to people who don't have chronic asthma. If you are now prone to that (assuming that the diagnosis is correct, which I am still not sure of), they you need to see a pulmonologist, have some sort of challenge test, and figure out what sort of medical regimen would stabilize your airways in the future. I would also recommend that you contact DAN once you have formal testing to see if what you have is an absolute or relative contraindication to diving.

I also learned, not to post in the midst of a very emotional time. My perspective was skewed, it had happened so recently.

I don't know about that, you said that you learned a lot, and if you hadn't posted you might not have later, and then you wouldn't have learned all of this stuff. If you are interested, here is what I did to learn from my mistakes, to help others learn, and to try to be a better diver in the future.

 

[Thea Strassburg]

Thank you Dandy Don. I am an attorney for the state. I prosecute people who commit physical/sexual abuse on children. I have been yelled at, personally attacked, bullied and criticized by much more powerful, more dangerous and more vicious people than anyone on this forum.
Every day, I deal with people who commit atrocities on children that most normal people will never have to see or even hear about. I see the pictures of tortured children, interview the victims, and aggressively pursue those monsters, mercilessly.

Nothing said here comes even close to what I have to deal with in my day to day life. Scuba diving gives me brief, beautiful respite. But until I follow the recommendations of those who dive far more than I, I won't be getting in the water again. The last thing I want to do is put another person in danger because of my mistakes.

And believe me, if I make a mistake in my job, dangerous predators are once again free to harm children. It is a heavy burden, other peoples safety. So I totally get DM's are NOT there to ensure my safety and it is unfair of me to expect them bear that burden. I was wrong.
Whether in the courtroom or in the water, I want to do no harm to anyone.
TC, I make a living trying to ensure other peoples safety. I don't take any of this personally because it appears that is what you and the others are doing as well. So, I get it.
Lastly, while I am a bit chubby, and smoke I have no prior medical conditions. Thanks again, all. I have listened and heard and will do whatever it takes to never let this happen again.