Dives and dive time

[BoltSnap]

What would Scubaboard be without an ability to speculatively invent the story to support our argument?

You have a point there

 

[DaleC]

You have a good point Jim.

Dive operators have a responsibility true but untimately, the diver themselves are responsible for their own dive. It's a hard position to adopt when one is new and unsure of themselves but when it does occur (if it does) it is a pivotal point in the progression of a diver.
Mine came on dive 21 or 23 (to lazy to look it up) when a "follow me" dive nearly wound up badly. After analyzing the causes I decided I would not do a dive unless I understood it. That meant initially that I had to stop pushing the envelope and dive a little more conservatively while I developed the skills neccisary to be in control of my diving.

I know it's diving and tourism and all that and in our modern culture we believe we can just purchase all of our experiences but; does it sound reasonable to arrive at an unknown dive site, go on a boat run by someone you don't know, partner up with people you've never met and allow a complete stranger tell you what to do underwater? And if so, what was involved in developing these important relationships that might negatively affect your health and wellbeing besides the exchange of a credit card number. Perhaps the sport has progressed a little too far in this regard.

 

[k ellis]

You say your max depth according to the computer was 72 feet but was it a real fast bounce then back to 60 feet? Just curious as it is vague in that essence. I agree though with all the other posters he may have rushed you out of the water but if you got bent it would be you that pays the price not him.

Whats the worst thing he could do to you? It was the final dive and he tell you not to come back again. At least youd be safe and alive rather then rolling the dice.......

I myself Especially when on loaded boats such as the occasional cattle boat do my 3 minute safety stop then stay under the boat for more off gas time until the other divers have cleared the ladder area. I usually tend to wait till the last possible minute to surface which in some cases have given me as much as 7 minutes at 15 feet. Just an added margin of safety is all.

There are 2 sides to every story and I am not saying your information is not accurate but one thing is for sure and that is there was a disagreement between you and the staff. You said the owner called back and spoke to you about tshirts and membership but did not say if you went on to discuss the incident further or if he agreed or disagreed or just simply blew it off. What was the final and ultimate outcome?

 

[String]

If the boat has an emergency recall, I will still take a safety stop! I am personally responsible for my own safety, not the dive guide or the boat. The boat already has an emergency, it does not need multiple emergencies.

Seriously?! That's lunacy. People need to remember we're not talking of decompression stops here - these are *optional* non-mandatory stops. You don't HAVE to do one. All they do is reduce an already absolutely minuscule risk of some DCS further
If there was a real diver emergency and the boat has to get away for any reason then staying for something optional for 3-4 more minutes directly endangers their lives needlessly.
If they're real deco stops (and even then we're not talking 1-2 mins) then the situation is different but delaying a seriously injured divers medical care by a few of those vital first minutes purely because you fancy doing some arbitrary time and an arbitrary depth purely because you "think" it helps is exceptionally selfish and dangerous. Skipping a safety stop is not going to mean instant death on surface and provided your dive wasnt badly planned and executed in the first place leaving you on the edge, it isn't going to bend you.

As for dive plans and arguing with a DM, the time to sort out depths, times, stops and scheduling is on the boat BEFORE the dive. If you disagree with it, sort it out before jumping in. Once you hit the water you've agreed to follow the plan. IF that plan is for a 45 minute dive that means 45 minutes, not "45 minutes then my 3 minute safety stop".
If working for a maximum dive time its up to you to make sure you exit at that time. If its 45 surface to surface you need to be at your stop depth on 41 mins at the latest to hit the surface at 45. If you've screwed that up you can't blame the DM - its entirely your own fault.

If you don't like the profiles, tell him. If you don't like the depths, tell him. If you don't like the time, tell him. If you don't like the surface interval, tell him. But do that BEFORE the dive.

No one that I could tell was or had done a safety stop.

And how do you know they didn't ? Most of the time the guide ends up swimming within safety stop depth for the last 3-4 minutes thereby completing the stop. A safety stop doesn't have to be a hang in one place just staring at the computer.
And even if nobody else does one that isn't actually any of your business. Every individual is responsible for their own dive.

Important note, the second dive was only supposed to be to a max of 60 feet. I went 12 feet past the plan. I knew I did this and planned to lengthen my safety stop.

OK so you agreed to a maximum depth pre dive then went back on that agreement, ignored the dive parameters and in return screwed up the planned dive time agreed upon by all by trying to make up for it. That isn't the DMs fault.

Both times I was able to swim in the same direction we had been going and find the dive leader.

Not rocket science that is it ! Why do you NEED a dive leader in sight at all times?

pointed to 5 mins on his computer

Which is more than a safety stop. Sounds like we're not being told the truth here... Sounds suspiciously like it was dived into deco.

My buddy then pulled his computer out of the water and said " see look, can't you hear it beeping".

Computers beeping for lack of safety stops? They beep when you miss mandatory DECO stops. Which shouldn't have occurred if (i) what you say above is true and (ii) if the divers actually knew what they were doing.

I talked to the owner who said my dive profile is my responsibility

And he's completely right. WITHIN the agreed limits set pre-dive. That includes a depth and time.

I rented my computer so I am not sure if it is working right. It says error now.

It won't error for a missed safety stop. It'll error for a missing deco stop. That's the divers problem.

For various reasons i don't believe the completely one sided view we're getting here, in particular the profiles.
What it sounds like to me is that we have 2 divers that ignored the maximum depths and times for a dive (no doubt set to PREVENT running into deco) and both took their computers into mandatory deco. As neither diver seems capable of executing a dive plan they allowed this to happen and in addition to this lacked the knowledge to actually adjust their dive to complete this deco and still be out by the pre-set maximum dive time. Looks to me like trying to blame everyone else for a divers screw up.

But do this, look at the PADI dive tables.

You seem completely unaware you cant just switch from computer to padi tables at will to decide profiles!

I have been diving since I was six years old". These are comments made by one of the dive leaders

Who said he was certified? Could quite easily have been taken unofficially by a friend or relative. Happens all the time.

The entire post seems to be entirely out to blame someone else instead of taking any responsibility for individual divers who should plan and execute their own dive instead of blindly relying on a guide.

 

[kanonfodr]

You're responsible for your safety, if think you need more deco time in the water then you take it. If it's a major emergency then the DM can come down and you can hash it out over wetnotes so you understand what's happening or you can tell him in writing to p*ss off.

And if the boat decides to leave me, well...they had better make sure I die out there otherwise they would be in a world of screwed when I got back to them. :furious: :gun: :biggun: :reaper: :viking2: :nuke:

It's reasons like this you should really research your dive ops (preferably lots of somebodies un-affiliated should vouch for whoever you are looking at diving with) before picking a travel destination.

That said, you should also be doing your part to get back to the boat on time, all deco completed. There were still two failures in this situation, but I will say that the DM's was much greater.

Peace,
Greg

 

[DevonDiver]

....There were two times when the dive leader had disappeared. ....he was just swimming along just assuming everyone was behind him...When the dive was over I was surprised to see that the dive leader was giving everyone the thumbs up and wanted everyone out of the water. I thought to myself, what about our safety stop.

It's an important learning experience. It's a common theme of advice here in Scubaboard that every diver is responsible for their own safety. That can lead to conflicts with some so-called 'professional' members of the scuba industry. What you need to take away from this is that the Divemaster is not infallible. Some are not even professional. Trust yourself and do what you know is right.

Within just a matter of seconds I could hear the dive leader blowing his little noise maker and wave both hands at us. I pointed to my computer and gave him the level off signal. He angerly gave me two thumbs up. When we got to the surface, the dive leader started yelling at me about how I better get out of the water when he tells me too.

There is simply no excuse for this sort of behaviour from a supposedly well-trained and well educated dive professional.

Firstly, you are a customer. You PAY HIM for his services as a dive guide and a dive organiser.

Secondly, as previously mentioned, you are responsible for your own safety. Conducting a safety stop may be optional.... but it is YOUR option, not his.

Thirdly, the divemaster has no knowledge of your nitrogen loading. You may have had a fast ascent and your computer may have given you a mandatory stop for that reason. You may have been at the tail-end of an aggressive multi-day diving schedule. The divemaster didn't know that...and hadn't planned for that contingency. Furthermore, he didn't give you the benefit of that doubt.

Fourth... you do need to be mindful that emergencies can happen, which can lead to the dive being curtailed. This is one of the reasons you should dive conservatively and not enter deco. However, if that were the case, then the Divemaster should have explained a 'recall procedure' as part of the boat briefing...and then clearly and identifiably used that procedure to end the dive.

The dive leaders response was I don't need a safety stop, why do you think you do. It is important to note that before this dive, during the briefing, he told everyone, "when I give you the signal to get out of the water you need to do it then, don't be pretending to look at your computer and ignore me."

Unprofessional. Bascially, he is saying that you are diving as per his computer. That goes against every agency directive about diving with dive computers. He should know that divers might/will have different dive profiles to his own. He should know that divers might have different DCS pre-disposing factors to his own. Lastly, HE SHOULD RESPECT that every diver has a right to add a safety stop if they feel it is in the interests of their personal safety.

In the context of this scenario, the debate isn't about the need to do a safety stop - it is about the customers' right to do a safety stop.

He started cussing at me and telling me I didn't know what I was talking about.

You're more patient than me. If I paid someone money to provide me with a service, then they are my 'bitch'. "Shut up dive bitch... go get me a coffee".

I called the dive shop when I got back and told them that I would not be back the following day. I talked to the owner who said my dive profile is my responsibility, but for some reason he didn't believe me that I was told that I didn't need a safety. He didn't think his dive boat employees wold say anything like that.

In the modern internet age... it doesn't pay to disregard your customers. It can be very damaging for business.

Name and shame the operation please!
.

I know a lot of you are going to telling me how bad I was for going 12 feet deeper than the dive plan....

Nope. Your money, your dive. You stayed out of deco (?) and followed a reasonable profile. No criticism of that. Yes, you did 'agree' to a set depth and time for the dive, but any responsible divemaster should be aware and prepared for the likelihood that a customer could exceed that - especially the depth.

IF the DM was paying closer attention during the dive...and IF the dive profile and time were critical for some reasons - then he would have been supervising you more attentively and could have directed you about your depth when he saw the problem at the time. He wasn't and he didn't.

There are a dozen factors that could have determined why you would want, and be entitled, to conduct a safety stop. You don't need to justify or apologise for that.

I originally responded to your first post flippantly, saying "you decided to get more training and experience". I apologise for that. If the divemaster was responsible for your abbreviated surface interval and safety stop, then my comment is directed at them.

What you describe sounds like a very poor diving operation. As a dive centre manager, I would be grateful to have recived negative feedback like you gave them. It's important to know how your staff behave both above and below the water. The fact that they paid your complaint no regard speaks volumes to me.

Please do name them.... and hopefully save other divers from the same terrible levels of customer service and safety awareness that you suffered.

The only way that operations like this will improve... is when they see the business repurcussions to their shameful levels of service!

 

[BoltSnap]

String,

Were you that DM on the boat in Aruba the OP is complaining about?

You need to recognize that this is a paying tourist/customer who is expecting to be treated as an adult with all respect due him. Unless the boat had a life threatening emergency (which doesn't appear to be the case here), if a customer had to stay few minutes extra U/W to do his precautionary stop is no big deal (within reason). I don't think that the customer deserves to be chastised the way the OP is describing it. Even if the customer did something he shouldn't have, the DM should have taken him aside and discussed it with him in a respectful and professional manner. A wise dive leader would have made the whole scenario appear as a concern and as an educational service he/she is providing to the customer as to avoid putting the customer on the spot and/or offending the customer who is paying his salary.

It is also noted that things happen and nothing goes according to plan. No dive leader should lose his/her cool at all with customers as what appears to have happened in this case. Treat everyone with respect and professionalism and turn the "negative" into positive experience for all.

(I am wondering why would the dive boat operator and DM would let divers in the water with such short SI Time if we are assuming the OP story is accurate????)

 

[DevonDiver]

Which is more than a safety stop. Sounds like we're not being told the truth here... Sounds suspiciously like it was dived into deco.

He said it was a rental computer. I wonder what the chance is that the dive operation hadn't 'zeroed' it at the beginning of the day when it was rented to him?

 

[String]

String,

Were you that DM on the boat in Aruba the OP is complaining about?

There are 2 sides to this story and it appears the OP did several things wrong.

You need to recognize that this is a paying tourist/customer who is expecting to be treated as an adult with all respect due him.

That's fine but he's supposed to be a qualified diver who is responsible for planning and executing his own dive within agreed parameters. Its clear from the above he didn't.

Unless the boat had a life threatening emergency (which doesn't appear to be the case here), if a customer had to stay few minutes extra U/W to do his precautionary stop is no big deal (within reason).

A maximum dive time was agreed upon. The OP then violated it (along with violating max depth). This again hints he isn't capable of planning or conducting his own dive.

I don't think that the customer deserves to be chastised the way the OP is describing it. Even if the customer did something he shouldn't have, the DM should have taken him aside and discussed it with him in a respectful and professional manner.

That's quite possible but i can see why the DM did it. More often than not if someone screws up everyone elses dive the rest of the divers rip into them anyway so the guide doesn't need to.

It is also noted that things happen and nothing goes according to plan. No dive leader should lose his/her cool at all with customers as what appears to have happened in this case. Treat everyone with respect and professionalism and turn the "negative" into positive experience for all.

The best course of action would have been to take him aside and inform him that he would not be diving any more from this boat i agree.

(I am wondering why would the dive boat operator and DM would let divers in the water with such short SI Time if we are assuming the OP story is accurate????)

Its not impossible they surfaced a bit late. Ive had 40 minute SIs in florida because i took the allowed max 1hr dive time whereas most were up after 40. Given its extremely shallow reef diving there i didnt have an issue with it but it does happen when boats are run to very very tight schedules.

He said it was a rental computer. I wonder what the chance is that the dive operation hadn't 'zeroed' it at the beginning of the day when it was rented to him?

Its possible although looking at the first story it would seem it was used on the start of a new diving "day" therefore had overnight which in most cases will clear computers to the point there isn't the slightest bit of difference. Its also clear the diver (i) didnt bother to find out how to work the computer or (ii) lacked the dive skills needed to avoid mandatory deco on it. Given the supposed "1 nitrogen bar remaining" (whatever the hell that means) the OP had it looks like both were skirting NDLs at best and quite possibly messed up and went into deco.


There seems to be a big recurring theme on boards here that whenever someone screws up its always "blame the dm". The divers themselves seem to take no responsibility for their own diving and always look for a scapegoat. The DM isn't there to do the dive for you.

 

[DevonDiver]

String... I think the issue is that other on this thread saw the major issue/s as being the customer service ethos and/or professionalism of the Divemaster.

Yes, the customer did "screw up".... in the same way that thousands of novice divers "screw up" every day at dive sites around the globe. We expect novice divers to get it wrong sometimes. But we don't expect the Divemaster to respond to those mistakes in the way that was described.

A novice divng customer screwed up a little...he went a little bit too deep.
A divemaster screwed up a lot... before, during and after the dive... as a role-model, as a dive pro, as a dive supervisor and as a customer service representative of his company.

Focusing on the OP's discretion is missing the major issue IMHO.