Diver missing on Cape Breton in Nanaimo 11/24/07

[Kennedydive]

If I, heaven forbid, ever die diving I want people to discuss the hell out of the subject. Make speculations, assumptions, and scenarios. As long as people are being respectful and not there ranting their own agenda than I could care less if what they say is wrong. If it encourages thought provoking discussion than that is healthy no mater how correct or incorrect it is. This is how we learn. If we are not allowed to ask questions than we will never learn from others situations or mistakes and lets face it this is a type of sport that seldom do you get a chance to learn from your own.
When you are not directly affected by the accident it is easy to ask questions. When you knew the person or were involved in the incident than it becomes much harder when you see individuals asking questions analyzing what mistakes they may have made. You tend to see and read things with your heart and that pain in your throat instead of reading things for what they are. Unfortunately we need both types of individuals to participate. The non-affected individual who will ask questions (sometimes the hard ones) and the people who knew the individual or were involved in the incident to shed light on the subject and to keep it from going way off track.
I don't believe that the thread has run its course but I do believe we need to be mature and respectful.
I feel that Candace posting her thread took lot of courage and would like to thank her for it. That takes a very strong person to do so. It always helps if the dive buddy in their own time participates in the discussion but I would never have any expectations that they should have to. That’s a lot for a group to ask and not our right to do so.
Jason

 

[DA Aquamaster]

one thing... to all of you that keep asking did they use a line or not... would it really make any difference to the outcome of this accident... Daniel is gone... his laugh will never be heard by those of you that did not know him... and will live forever in the memory of those that did...

move on... and lets all just dive our own dives... and let other do dive their dives...

From one persective, whether a line was used or not makes no difference to Daniel, Candace or his many freinds as he is irrevocably gone and his memory by all of those who knew him is all that is left. That is the case with any after the fact discussion of the causes or contributing factors to any accident.

From another perspective, an after the fact discussion of the factors contributing to an accident are of immense value as they are instead a before the fact educational opportunity to prevent future accidents.

To the people who knew the diver(s) involved, that process never feels good, may seem a little cold and harsh and may seem to be disrepectful to the memory of divers who are often by all accounts regarded as being very skilled, but those costs pale in comparision to the costs to other divers and their families if we do not fully explore the mistakes that contributed to an accident.

In this case discussion of what would have changed had a line been used and had both divers been properly trained and configured for advanced wreck penetration is vital in order to increase the knowledge of the risks involved in wreck penetration without proper training or equipment. In a real sense, and from this perspective, a post accident analysis is often the last and perhaps the most valuable contribution a dedicated diver will give to the diving community.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The number two cause of fatalities in penetration dives (behind "diving beyond one's training") is "failure to use a continuous guideline" to open water. It is a lesson learned over and over, and yet super nice, experienced divers still get bit by it. Until that stops happening, I will continue to beat the horse, because until everyone gets the message to the extent that they do run a line on penetration dives, then our work as fellow divers to convince them of the necessity is not finished. Indeed, if this year is any indicator, we need to beat the "continuous guideline" drum louder and more constantly.
Rick

It's one thing to discuss the accident ... it's quite another to start cross-examining a loved one, especially on a public forum. Anybody who's been on ScubaBoard for longer than about 10 minutes should know where that conversation will go. The woman's hurting bad enough ... let's not make it worse.

Someone quoted Uncle Pug's poem earlier. I know the man ... he's one of my closest diving friends, and one of the wisest divers I know. He meant every word of that poem ... but I think that, even in death, he'd have serious objections to someone expecting his wife to come on this board and "fill in the details" for the enlightenment of all who read here. That would cause her a lot of pain, and that's something he would definitely not want to happen ... even if she were the only person on this earth who could provide that information. This is NOT an inquest, and the reality is that not everyone who participates here does so for educational purposes.

I don't think there's a single person in this discussion who doesn't know that you should run line in an overhead environment ... ESPECIALLY in a wreck where a silt-out is always a possibility. Does everyone do it? No. Humans simply aren't built like that. We all do things we know we shouldn't ... sometimes things that put us and our loved ones in danger (speeding on the highway, anyone?), because denial is a part of our circuitry and to some degree or another we all practice it ... that's how mistakes happen.

FWIW - I've seen some seriously stupid divers on those wrecks. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people who penetrate them do not run line ... or use doubles. Dumb? I think so ... but people do dumb things. Sometimes it bites them badly. Is there anything, really, that any of us can learn from being told that it wasn't the right thing to do? Seriously ... I doubt it. Those who would listen already know ... and those who will do it anyway won't listen.

So go ahead ... discuss ... speculate ... learn ... beat the horse if it makes ya feel better. But I draw the line at grilling a victim. That's just plain, downright cold.

Leave her alone ... she's dealing with her worst nightmare. Asking her to relive it on a public forum can't possibly do her anything but harm. And there's not a single person reading this thread who would benefit from it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree with most of what you are saying Bob, especially about grilling the survivor.

But I think one thing needs to be added. Rationalization is a big part of the denial process. Confident divers tend to think that bad things happen to other people and that their superior skill and experience will keep them alive in situations where an equally trained but less skilled or experienced diver would perish. This complacency often allows them to get into situations that, when one or two things do not go exactly as planned, get them into a situation that exceeds their training, their equipment, their skill and their experience and a fatality often results.

At best we are relying on vicarious learning which lacks the tremendous impact and depth of the direct learning that occurs from your own personal near death encounter or the less personal but still profound impact of the indirect learning that occurs witnessing the death of a diver on the boat. But it is all we have in many cases and it is a lot better than nothing, particularly in cases where the victim was comparatively skilled or experienced, making it harder for a number of divers to rationalize that their self perceived superior skill and experience would have allowed them to survive absent proper training and equipment.

 

[Rick Murchison]

It's one thing to discuss the accident ... it's quite another to start cross-examining a loved one,...Leave her alone ...

I could not agree more. I think we can extract the essentials and the lessons learned (even if they're old ones) without that, and my post was in answer to the question about whether a line would make any difference - and in my opinion it most definitely would have made a difference. I didn't see any question or "cross-examination" in my post, nor was any implication of such a thing intended.
Rick

 

[Missdirected]

Bob, I don't think anyone here is demanding she stand for questioning. Your post seems to imply we want her hauled to the firing line.

 

[ghostrunner007]

Rick:

Great article (silt.pdf), I think anyone who is thinking of doing a wreck dive should read it . It reminds us all that no matter what, we have to follow procedures. Not following them WILL get you into trouble. As of today we dont know all the details of this accident, will we ever maybe maybe not. But in the mean time instead of betting each other up over who is demanding what lets remember the fallen soul, the people directly involed and indirectly involed and make sure all of us follow the procedures taught to us.
Nothing would make me happier than see nothing posted in the accident forum for awhile, which would mean that no divers are being injured or killed.

 

[wedivebc]

It's one thing to discuss the accident ... it's quite another to start cross-examining a loved one, especially on a public forum. Anybody who's been on ScubaBoard for longer than about 10 minutes should know where that conversation will go. The woman's hurting bad enough ... let's not make it worse.

Very well said Bob

 

[Jimmer]

Dave, can you give us a little more info? Has it been cleared for a group of more skilled divers (yourself included I assume) to go in for a recovery?

 

[wedivebc]

Dave, can you give us a little more info? Has it been cleared for a group of more skilled divers (yourself included I assume) to go in for a recovery?

I will say more about this later.