Diver missing on Cape Breton in Nanaimo 11/24/07
- Thread starter PrincessOfPower
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PerroneFord
Contributor
I have no dog in this fight. Quote from the description of this section of Scubaboard:
"Accidents and Incidents This forum is for the discussion of diving Accidents and Incidents. Please read the message at the top of the forum before posting threads or responses. Memorial threads can be posted in the Passings forum."
Perhaps I misunderstand the purpose of the accidents and incidents forum, but this description seems to make it clear that it exists to provide an opportunity for board members to discuss diving accidents. It seems that is what was happening. It is disappointing to see the vitriol in the thread.
Perhaps this forum should be abandoned on the board.
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Depends on whether it's used for analysis or blamestorming ... much of what I see is the latter, which serves no useful purpose.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
PerroneFord
Contributor
Is it blamestorming? Or is it an attempt to figure out what happened, why, who was at fault, and learn from it. I really don't know. The thread leaves me with more questions than answers. But frankly, I've read enough of these to form a conclusion that satisfies me, even if my conclusion is wrong.
Maybe that's all we can hope for...
deepdiverbc
Contributor
Almitywife
I am not wreck certified and have been in the situation you describe where others enter and I refuse. As Jeckyll stated, to enter a wreck you should have additional training and gear. IMHO twin tanks are a must. A pony bottle doesn't cut it for me BTW. You should also be diving with a buddy who has the same gear and training.
First off, know what the dive plan is and if it is a wreck find out if your buddy intends to enter it. If they intend to penetrate the wreck into overhead environments that you are not trained for or comfortable with don't dive with them, or ask them to change the dive plan. If you stay outside and "watch the bubbles" you are now diving solo. Not good unless you carry a pony bottle and are comfortable doing solo dives.
I personally will enter large pilot houses with multiple exits and will enter cargo holds with no overhead obstructions. I will not enter the hull of a ship or areas with only a few exits. I will also not dive beyond the comfort level of my buddy.
Underseabumblebee
Running a line won't prevent an accident if you are doing the penetration alone, without proper training/gear or with a buddy that doesn't have the correct training/gear.
A side thought on spools
I have been thinking about running a line since this topic opened. I don't carry a reel but do carry a spool. With a reel you can clip the unit to a bolt snap and play out the line. For my spool I was thinking that it would be a good idea to run the line through a bolt snap on my d-ring after tieing it off. This way if I drop the spool I won't become separate from the line. Just a thought for those that use spools and for some reason need to run a line.
I am not wreck certified and have been in the situation you describe where others enter and I refuse. As Jeckyll stated, to enter a wreck you should have additional training and gear. IMHO twin tanks are a must. A pony bottle doesn't cut it for me BTW. You should also be diving with a buddy who has the same gear and training.
First off, know what the dive plan is and if it is a wreck find out if your buddy intends to enter it. If they intend to penetrate the wreck into overhead environments that you are not trained for or comfortable with don't dive with them, or ask them to change the dive plan. If you stay outside and "watch the bubbles" you are now diving solo. Not good unless you carry a pony bottle and are comfortable doing solo dives.
I personally will enter large pilot houses with multiple exits and will enter cargo holds with no overhead obstructions. I will not enter the hull of a ship or areas with only a few exits. I will also not dive beyond the comfort level of my buddy.
Underseabumblebee
Running a line won't prevent an accident if you are doing the penetration alone, without proper training/gear or with a buddy that doesn't have the correct training/gear.
A side thought on spools
I have been thinking about running a line since this topic opened. I don't carry a reel but do carry a spool. With a reel you can clip the unit to a bolt snap and play out the line. For my spool I was thinking that it would be a good idea to run the line through a bolt snap on my d-ring after tieing it off. This way if I drop the spool I won't become separate from the line. Just a thought for those that use spools and for some reason need to run a line.
Sometimes diving accidents are unavoidable. Sometimes, your time is up.
But in the two and a half years I've been reading accident threads and reports, it's been my impression that the vast majority of fatal incidents fall into two classes: In one, the diver has a medical problem at depth that was unavoidable and untreatable, and in the other, significant errors were made that led to an unsalvageable situation.
Other than trying to maintain reasonable fitness, and not dive with known medical conditions that raise the risk of dying underwater, there is little anyone or any board can do about the first category of diving fatalities.
But the second category, the diving errors, is highly amenable to education. If someone reads the account of an experienced diver dying in a wreck because he got silted out and disoriented and couldn't exit, it might stop someone from swimming into someplace where they don't belong; it might help someone planning a penetration dive decide that running a line was mandatory rather than optional. THAT's the value of threads in this forum. If there are procedural errors that are made that cost someone his life, we should attempt to share them and discuss how a different approach to the dive might have been more successful. This is one of the biggest purposes a discussion board like this can serve, in my opinoin.
But in the two and a half years I've been reading accident threads and reports, it's been my impression that the vast majority of fatal incidents fall into two classes: In one, the diver has a medical problem at depth that was unavoidable and untreatable, and in the other, significant errors were made that led to an unsalvageable situation.
Other than trying to maintain reasonable fitness, and not dive with known medical conditions that raise the risk of dying underwater, there is little anyone or any board can do about the first category of diving fatalities.
But the second category, the diving errors, is highly amenable to education. If someone reads the account of an experienced diver dying in a wreck because he got silted out and disoriented and couldn't exit, it might stop someone from swimming into someplace where they don't belong; it might help someone planning a penetration dive decide that running a line was mandatory rather than optional. THAT's the value of threads in this forum. If there are procedural errors that are made that cost someone his life, we should attempt to share them and discuss how a different approach to the dive might have been more successful. This is one of the biggest purposes a discussion board like this can serve, in my opinoin.
Solitude Diver
Contributor
I have not read much of anything constructive in this thread. Nothing but speculation, guessing, and (likely) poor assumptions.
There are no real facts available yet to make for a decent discussion. The only facts are posted in the press, and it has already been shown that at least some of that information was wrong from the beginning.
So why continue discussing this accident specifically when no one besides the girlfriend knows what happened? What can anyone contribute specifically about this incident?
We all know you should probably dive with a line. That horse has been beaten as far as it can go. We all know you need to make sure you have enough air for your dive. Duh.
What we don’t know is what happened, or if any of this has anything to do with the accident. It could’ve been medical, equipment failure, or anything for all anyone knows. If this forum is to discuss specific accidents. I think we’ve gained all we can gain from this one without more information from others who have already asked us to stop discussing it.
This thread has run it’s course (in my opinion) and should be closed. If nothing else out of respect for the family and friends. It’s not like a more useful conversation regarding safety can’t be started in a new thread if someone really wants to learn something.
Christ, what a circus.
There are no real facts available yet to make for a decent discussion. The only facts are posted in the press, and it has already been shown that at least some of that information was wrong from the beginning.
So why continue discussing this accident specifically when no one besides the girlfriend knows what happened? What can anyone contribute specifically about this incident?
We all know you should probably dive with a line. That horse has been beaten as far as it can go. We all know you need to make sure you have enough air for your dive. Duh.
What we don’t know is what happened, or if any of this has anything to do with the accident. It could’ve been medical, equipment failure, or anything for all anyone knows. If this forum is to discuss specific accidents. I think we’ve gained all we can gain from this one without more information from others who have already asked us to stop discussing it.
This thread has run it’s course (in my opinion) and should be closed. If nothing else out of respect for the family and friends. It’s not like a more useful conversation regarding safety can’t be started in a new thread if someone really wants to learn something.
Christ, what a circus.
ladbak1
Guest
Sorry to hear of your loss!
The number two cause of fatalities in penetration dives (behind "diving beyond one's training") is "failure to use a continuous guideline" to open water. It is a lesson learned over and over, and yet super nice, experienced divers still get bit by it. Until that stops happening, I will continue to beat the horse, because until everyone gets the message to the extent that they do run a line on penetration dives, then our work as fellow divers to convince them of the necessity is not finished. Indeed, if this year is any indicator, we need to beat the "continuous guideline" drum louder and more constantly.
Rick
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