Diver missing at Ginnie?

[PfcAJ]

Nothing published yet
1-doesn't matter
2-doesn't matter
3-yes though that doesn't matter
4-doesn't matter
5-doesn't matter

What matters is that he used to be able to do this dive, hadn't done this dive in a long time, and decided one day to get back into cave diving and then went hog wild. Reckless behavior was not something that he was averse to and it frankly is a miracle he hadn't offed himself earlier.



@breals could probably answer that better. My understanding is that he took a very bad hit and had him out of the water for a long time. the last time I really talked to him until last month was back in 2011 when he was on the Doria with a good friend of mine and one of the guys on that trip died. I do not know how long he was really out of the water but he was active on various forums until about 2017 or so and may have been doing some local diving at that point. Again some of his closer friends would know better

You have no idea at ALL of any of those things were a factor. Unless you’re willfully withholding info, and part of the problem.

Blaming it on too fast too soon as a conclusion that’s, well, too fast and too soon. It enough data.

 

[Manatee Diver]

It is my understanding that the IUCRR has stopped issuing public reports and only gives reports to the police. The reason supposedly was that they feared a lawsuit if someone from a family was offended by something they wrote. The police will release it to someone through FOIA, but not otherwise.

Dead people can't be defamed, at least under US law. So they would have no grounds to sue... though that rarely stops people.

TBH this is one thing that annoys me, the death is being discussed and because everyone knows that no official report is going to be released there is rampant speculation on the cause. Yes, if it wasn't a medical event, ultimately it will likely come down to one of the core cave diving, or tech diving rules being broken. But which one, and was it in a way that we can learn from. But the very same people that won't release the report are often the same people who promote Gareth Locke's teachings. This isn't promoting a safety culture, and a fail safe system.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Tbone1004, I've been searching for the most polite way to say I think you are going out of your way to over simplify and to post the same over simplified comments as much as possible. I usually love reading your posts, but today, I'm a little tired of reading them.

I wasn't great friends with Andrew, but our paths used to cross more a decade ago when I was working part time at Ginnie, diving from 11pm-3am. Andrew and Agnes were both pushing the boundaries of Ginnie, though I always felt that Andrew was doing it more safely. Sure, he had some close calls, but I felt like he learned from them, and wasn't as boastful as some others. Maybe my memories are skewed by his post about learning from a real life loop tear incident how quickly bailout can be drained, an incident I reference almost as much as his scooter battery mishap. Probably he was more cavalier than I recall, and I look forward to hearing from those better acquainted.


When I started cave diving, Rich Courtney told me I should be prepared to see a lot of my friends die, and he busted my chops because he didn't want me to die. Of course, Rich is dead now.

I will never forget listening to Jean weeping around the campfire at Ginnie when we learned of Marson's passing. It was chilling, it was pure emotion, and in some sense it was the most human reaction I've seen to an underwater death. Jean is gone.

In fact, I think of that sound when I listen to the music produced by Shannon Leigh, who died while I was working the front counter at Ginnie.

I once did something stupid and tried to exit through July Springs. Got close enough to see sunlight and stick a hand out into open water before giving up and turning around. Found a cool coke bottle that I still keep around as a reminder of my stupidity. There were some minor similarities in my stupid decision and the one that killed Agnes, and every so often I will ponder and reflect on those.

I found a mask in Royal once, got bad vibes and put it back in the silt. Re-reading the IUCRR report later, it was the same brand as one of the deceased, who happened to be missing a mask. Haven't found a good reason to go in the cave at Royal since.

Every death hurts, but I feel like the past few have been particularly close to home. I know there have been so many more than the few I mention here. My goal remains the same, to never die in a cave, and I am looking forward to learning more of the details in this situation so I can learn from them and further the pursuit of my own not dying in a cave goals, regardless of how mundane the cause.

Maybe it's because Andrew had just started posting on CDF again, and I was feeling nostalgic, but to learn of his death just a few days later, has me feeling a bit down. It's a damn shame.

 

[PfcAJ]

Does anyone know if he was on OC or rebreather?

 

[Knockneed Man]

Condolences to all his family and friends. I think a lot of people (generally speaking) are fortunate enough to forget how hard it is to lose a loved one.

 

[tbone1004]

@JahJahwarrior I apologize for beating the dead horse *though hopefully that's just because it's the same message on two platforms, I'll try to go back to my normal self but this is hitting a bit close to home and I am trying to disconnect the person from the analysis* and taking an oversimplified approach to trying to learn from this incident. Andrew was a good guy and I enjoyed talking with him as recently as two weeks ago as he was asking questions and posting again.

I sincerely hope we take this as a learning opportunity to not harp on the nit picky specifics of what directly contributed to the incident but really explore our ability to self-evaluate as divers which as a whole we are notoriously bad at. The learning about self-evaluation and self-awareness is far more important to the community than another incident of someone ran out of gas, didn't bring enough gas, or breathed the wrong gas which @PfcAJ just eloquently said on the phone is really the root cause of the majority of incidents in the last decade *CCR deaths due to hypoxia certainly count as breathing the wrong gas*. I don't want this to be another opportunity wasted to really look into the true root cause of what is causing these deaths as I think we start speculating about the direct causes of an incident without really digging into the root cause of why they thought that was an OK decision to make at the time. Sure complacency kills, but why were they complacent?

 

[tursiops]

Sure complacency kills, but why were they complacent?

They are people. People get complacent. Safety systems try and defeat complacency. Checklists, buddies, S-drills, etc., are all designed to force you to do the right thing, to double-check you, to not allow you to say to yourself "I tested that gas" or "I checked those fittings." Solo diving removes one safety system...not because the buddy might have helped you but because the buddy gets to say, "I didn't see you test that gas. Where is the sticker?" Over-confidence needs to be mitigated....checklists help. We have a lot of safety systems to prevent complacency....but people don't use them, because, well, they are over-confident, and are not willing to make a personal assessment other than, "I can do this." To do anything else is a sign of personal weakness and failure.

 

[beldridg]

It is my understanding that the IUCRR has stopped issuing public reports and only gives reports to the police. The reason supposedly was that they feared a lawsuit if someone from a family was offended by something they wrote. The police will release it to someone through FOIA, but not otherwise.

When I was alpine climbing and mountaineering, every year I would buy and read cover-to-cover the "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" book published by the American Alpine Club. It was invaluable for improving my skills and mindset.

Accidents in North American Climbing 2021

Detailed accounts and in-depth analysis of rock climbing, mountaineering, and ski mountaineering accidents and rescues.

www.mountaineers.org

This is from their website mentioned above:

Since 1948, the American Alpine Club has documented the year’s most teachable climbing accidents, providing invaluable lessons to climbers. In Accidents in North American Climbing, each incident is thoroughly analyzed to help climbers avoid similar mistakes in the future. In our Know the Ropes and Essentials sections, professional guides and other experts offer in-depth instruction and copious illustration to help prevent avoidable accidents.​

​

If they can do it, why can't we? I really wish we could find a way to do the same in our community.

I have a couple friends who knew Andrew very well and it is devastating.

Regards,

- brett

 

[undrwater]

I never dove with him as a buddy, though we dive around each other at Redondo Beach. I enjoyed his company after dives, as he was a character.

We talked a bit about him starting me on the road to tech.

Man, this is sad.

 

[drrich2]

It started with great intentions, it appears to me to have morphed into a group more dedicated to protection of commercial cave diving interests and a side serving of access protection.. that is just my view

If they can do it, why can't we? I really wish we could find a way to do the same in our community.

Is it common in mountaineering that in the wake of a fatality, upset relatives feeling the need to ‘do something’ create political pressure to bar access to that site going forward?