Diver killed- (and update)

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DEEPSEAWOLF:
I am seriously looking into buying a new PWC and outfitting it with dive gear and weaponry. According to the castle legislation as well as felony laws, I have the right to use deadly force in the prevention of a forcible felony. Vehicular homicide sounds like a forcible felony. So does manslaughter. All I have to say is, if one of these idiots ever injures or kills one of my family members, they will NOT live to see morning if they don't go to prison. I would much rather focus on education for the unknowing, but the uncaring will do as they will unless someone SERIOUSLY changes their beliefs.
Hmmm,... a rented condo on the third floor overlooking the beach. A diveflag placed at 300 yards in the water. A .50 BMG with hollow points. Problem solved. It's only a matter of time before these comments become justified to some crazy out there whose family member gets chewed up by a speedboat prop. PTSD would be MY excuse!

Hmm, a rented condo...a machine gun nest...hollow points...I think that is lying in wait, which is considered special circumstances in the charge of murder. And this has nothing to do whatsoever with castle doctrine in Florida. This idea is like trying to shoot every speeding motorist in your neighborhood. Yes, you do have a right to use lethal force to stop a 'forcible felony', but can you prove the boater is not just negligent by not seeing a dive flag? Unless you can prove the boat is actually trying to mow down the divers around the flag, you'll get the top WSVN news story of the night. That channel glamourizes news like this BTW. Makes me wonder who the crazy person in the situation really is.
 
CBulla and I are working on an education group. I have seen that some, I repeat, SOME of the problems could be reduced if people understood what the flags meant, and what vehicluar manslaughter means if they kill a diver or swimmer.
I did my own little poll here after I returned from my Venice Haircut dive and found many boaters here have NO idea what that flag is. Some thought it was a channel marker, others thought they were fishtrap or crabtrap markers. Once they were advised of divers just below the surface, one of them committed to informing other boaters. This was a definite plus.
We can't do much about the idiots who use them as race buoys, however, I have spoken to an attorney about the legal issue of self-defense. He says it is viewed differently for boaters. You would have to prove that the individual knew what the flag meant and that they were actually intending to HARM the diver. He also said that since boater insurance is optional, and boaters are not licensed, it would be very difficult to keep them from boating as long as they had registration stickers so they don't get pulled over.
He strongly suggested getting law enforcement involved or the videotaping and civil suits for reckless endangerment. Once a few suits have been settled in court, (especially a few agains the state) the precedent will be set, and news stations will get word of it, maybe then people will become more aware.
The major problem, as we've said before, is the furtherence of the diver vs. boater war that seems predominant in Florida. If they feel it's a diver vs boater situation, they might actually TRY to cause problems.
 
Up here in Chicago the Illinois Council of Skin and Scuba Divers put together a Boater Education pamphlet and had members drop them off at local boater spots, i.e. Marina's, Boating Supply stores, etc... Kind of passive, but a step none the less....
 
Hmmm...
I was there that day (with marydiver, olddiver, and ftldiver, along with a couple others). My condolonces to the family of the deseased.
Off of Florida waters, we have had our flag yanked out of the water by Marine patrol, flag run over by Marine patrol.
At Dania at the erojacks, near where the accident took place, we were snorkeling one day and a raceboat was drifting in our direction and they told us to move! Another time I pulled my buddy down cause a boat was drifting over us as we were diving the jacks. There were at least 5 flags there that day. I saw the props.
One time north of there (LBTS) a boat anchored between our two flags. Need I go on?
Education is the key. We as divers need to educate first law enforcement then the general public.
When I was in Erie, Pa this summer, along the dock in downtown there were at least a dozen signs donated by a local printer that explained what the diver down flag was, and what (not) to do when near it in a boat. Very informative, and a great start.
 
I wonder what it would take to organize either :

1. a sting operation - dive flags (with or w/o divers) posted in an area with Marine Patrol standing by to intercept and ticket boats that disregard the flags. Warnings may serve best at first, but tickets to repeat offenders in the same weekend,

2. a crack news team investigation (of the sort news crews are keenly into) - similarly, dive flags posted in an area with cameras rolling and reporting on boaters that disregard the laws

Just my two cents worth ...
 
Scuba_Jenny:
Hmmm...

When I was in Erie, Pa this summer, along the dock in downtown there were at least a dozen signs donated by a local printer that explained what the diver down flag was, and what (not) to do when near it in a boat. Very informative, and a great start.


Hmm yerself.. I seem to remember that someone around this thread works for a printer :D


It is a great idea, just so many marinas around that area :icon10:
 
DEEPSEAWOLF:
CBulla and I are working on an education group. I have seen that some, I repeat, SOME of the problems could be reduced if people understood what the flags meant, and what vehicluar manslaughter means if they kill a diver or swimmer.
I did my own little poll here after I returned from my Venice Haircut dive and found many boaters here have NO idea what that flag is. Some thought it was a channel marker, others thought they were fishtrap or crabtrap markers. Once they were advised of divers just below the surface, one of them committed to informing other boaters. This was a definite plus.
We can't do much about the idiots who use them as race buoys, however, I have spoken to an attorney about the legal issue of self-defense. He says it is viewed differently for boaters. You would have to prove that the individual knew what the flag meant and that they were actually intending to HARM the diver. He also said that since boater insurance is optional, and boaters are not licensed, it would be very difficult to keep them from boating as long as they had registration stickers so they don't get pulled over.
He strongly suggested getting law enforcement involved or the videotaping and civil suits for reckless endangerment. Once a few suits have been settled in court, (especially a few agains the state) the precedent will be set, and news stations will get word of it, maybe then people will become more aware.
The major problem, as we've said before, is the furtherence of the diver vs. boater war that seems predominant in Florida. If they feel it's a diver vs boater situation, they might actually TRY to cause problems.

Phew. Ease my mind! :D
 
What if any is the fine for encroachment on a dive flag by a boat? Is it really enough to deter boat owners who many of them spend at least $20K if not 100K on their boat... What kind of disposable income do S. Florida Boaters have?
The only laws I have seen just require the flag to be flown...

I started a thread in whine & cheese about this... I figured that would be a good place.

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=113557

Just wondering what other people think.
 
My favorite was when we were diving near the pier by Hibiscus... and those folks drifted through us FISHING? And when you asked "We saw the flags, thats why we cut the motors...." but they had left the lines out (!!! :06: )



Scuba_Jenny:
Hmmm...
I was there that day (with marydiver, olddiver, and ftldiver, along with a couple others). My condolonces to the family of the deseased.
Off of Florida waters, we have had our flag yanked out of the water by Marine patrol, flag run over by Marine patrol.
At Dania at the erojacks, near where the accident took place, we were snorkeling one day and a raceboat was drifting in our direction and they told us to move! Another time I pulled my buddy down cause a boat was drifting over us as we were diving the jacks. There were at least 5 flags there that day. I saw the props.
One time north of there (LBTS) a boat anchored between our two flags. Need I go on?
Education is the key. We as divers need to educate first law enforcement then the general public.
When I was in Erie, Pa this summer, along the dock in downtown there were at least a dozen signs donated by a local printer that explained what the diver down flag was, and what (not) to do when near it in a boat. Very informative, and a great start.
 
It is like hit and run on a dog. Not enough people do it in the presence of Law Enforcement for it to be an issue, and since we get them doing it to us as well, it shows they don't care enough about enforcement.
The education issue is a great start. I've been working on an educational pamphlet that DOESN'T look like we're slapping someone in the face. It has more to do with water safety and speeds inshore than diving. It explains unseen obstructions and water hazards, then has a quick "test your knowledge" section. It's intended to educate, not instigate. I'll have this and more items for people to look at during the Megadive in October at Ginnie. I also expect to talk more with Colin about this if we can make it down for the Andy,... I mean, um, TURKEY fry in November. As for expendable income, the first problem is education, the second is enforcement. Until an education class or license is required, enforcement will be difficult. Even then, it will have to be a "special needs" issue. They would rather get cited in headlines for busting "illegal lobster hunters", than harassing speeders in boats which is exactly why teh problem people get boats and PWC's. You can open it up just about anywhere! Try doing that in a car and not getting a ticket.
 
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https://xf2.scubaboard.com/community/forums/cave-diving.45/

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