Diver Indicted in 2003 GBR mishap

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Really? A show of hands here: how many people on this board who, before even getting married, in their early twenties, sought to increase their future spouse's life insurance policies and make sure that the benficiaries were correct?
Quite a few people would. It may seem coldly mercenary, but look at how many people who now execute pre-nuptial agreements. Absolutely no conclusion can be drawn from the "fact" that you have stated, if indeed it is a fact.

The motive in this case is immaterial. What is irrefutable are the following.....
These "facts" that you give are indeed all refutable, at least on the basis that I've read. Have you seen any official documents concerning this case? The only one I've seen is the Coroner's finding, which IMO did NOT say that he believed the man had murdered the girl, but rather that was no evidence that he had not, so that therefore there was a case to answer.

As I said earlier, it is dangerous believing what journalists have written. I believe this man will not be found guilty, whatever verdicts are available to an Australian Court. In Scotland there could be a verdict of "not proven" which is a lot less certain than "not guilty", but that doesn't exist in England and probably doesn't in Australia either (given how its legal system developed).

I wish people would not draw outrageous conclusions from a very sketchy set of facts.
 
Usually in a case like this, every important witness at the trial will have inconsistent testimony, most of them will be shown to be wrong about some parts of the events that they claim to remember, most of their memories of the events will be different today then how they remembered it to be 5 years ago, and because of the heat of the moment, all of them will look like they behaved oddly in 20/20 hindsight/ retrospect.

A case doesn't get stronger after 5 years, it gets weaker. If they had a strong case, I would assume this whole thing would have been wrapped up a long time ago. But a corner's inquest which concludes they can't be certain the death was an accident, doesn't sound like they have that good of a case.

If it weren't for the glare of the media and the demand for justice by the general public, many possible murders (this one included) would be forgotten and unprosecuted.

I'm curious why you think that is. Do you really believe that we prosecutors don't want to bring murderers to justice for some reason?
 
i on the other hand would suggest that when about to get married, looking/increasing your policies and updating your beneficiaries would be quite normal

cheers

Was there any mention of the husband increasing his insurance and changing his beneficiary to his wife?
 
I'm curious why you think that is. Do you really believe that we prosecutors don't want to bring murderers to justice for some reason?
Why did it take 5 years to get to this point in the case? Does a coroner's inquest typically lag the events in question by that much time?
 
Ok. My hand is up. If it is uncommon, is only a presumption they are common and view something as the you/us/we do.
I feel it is most common aquiring life insurance as a gift of love. Someone is concerned about the welfare of another or their death would have some form of value to the living. I wonder how common it is for benificaries refuse insurance payments?

I expect is commonly viewed by persons unaffected, like us, Life Insurance is a motive in a questionable death. And people (IMHO) do tend to denly the unplesant fact they are going to die sooner or later. Personally when I first was seeing TV ads to give the gift of life insurance to a newborn or child I was shocked it was Gerber, it seemed sooooo tasteless.

However $130,000 (the only amount I’ve seen mentioned) is really zipolla this day and age for murder – in my view. Good lord his defence must cost far more than that. And a very good reason to be trying to get the money J.
To think of pulling something like that off, the risk of life in prison for a young person, I think it would have to be multiple policies totalling millions. And if this guy is so idiotic to kill her or allow her to die for $130,000 some one that knows him would be speaking up about previous poor life choices. J So if the that policy value is correct, I’m having a hard time seeing it as a motive.

The whole thing is just strange and curious to me. Beginning from the get go with
why he was (apparently) not suspected of foul play from the onset. The police never thought to inquire knowledgeable diving sources if his claims seemed valid at the death? This inquest delayed, 5 years!
The speed with which such investigations are completed are in many instances determined by the availability of staff and the ability and willingness of Officers in Charge to expend funds to carry through the Investigators and/or the Coroners recommendations. Makes it seem AU is a good place to murder.

On the other hand...
Originally Posted by shakeybrainsurgeon
If it weren't for the glare of the media and the demand for justice by the general public, many possible murders (this one included) would be forgotten and unprosecuted.

In my experience I have to agree. I did Canine SAR including criminal evidence and cadaver search. The state Coroner was a BOD member and we were privy to many unpublished facts.
One mission comes to mind particularly where the suspect made absolutely absurd claims how he accidently shot that person. The coroner accompanied me and I kinda grilled him after (forensics is fascinating, amazing what the maggots can tell :D.) Our search was conducted relatively soon after the event as he was very aware what heat does to scent.
I (actually my dog, I was just her interpreter) found exactly the proof it was foul play but the prosecutor did not agree there was sufficient evidence to try the case. This was not by any means an isolated situation.

Justice it seems is complicated.
 
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Usually in a case like this, every important witness at the trial will have inconsistent testimony, most of them will be shown to be wrong about some parts of the events that they claim to remember, most of their memories of the events will be different today then how they remembered it to be 5 years ago, and because of the heat of the moment, all of them will look like they behaved oddly in 20/20 hindsight/ retrospect.

A case doesn't get stronger after 5 years, it gets weaker. If they had a strong case, I would assume this whole thing would have been wrapped up a long time ago. But a corner's inquest which concludes they can't be certain the death was an accident, doesn't sound like they have that good of a case.



I'm curious why you think that is. Do you really believe that we prosecutors don't want to bring murderers to justice for some reason?

I believe that prosecutors, like every other human on earth, are prone to error or worse. I believe that some prosecutors might avoid cases that are difficult or time consuming, preferring to keep their conviction rate high. And their work load light. Unless of course, the DA's office is unique in never having lazy, incompetent, ambitious or dishonest people in it. I'll admit that there are plenty of crappy, inept, greedy and lazy doctors. Will you admit that there are crappy, inept, greedy and lazy prosecutors?

Cosnider the recent case of a wealthy couple in Denver who brought their battered baby to an ER to die...only much, much later, after a public outcry, did the prosecutors act on the case and bring charges. How about the, er, somewhat less than aggressive pursuit of the Ramsey case? Ted Kennedy's prosecutor was, let's say, somewhat less than aggressive in the Kopechne case as well. Or how about the aggressive pursuit of the Duke rape case? Or the inept prosecution of OJ. Or the countless people being sprung from prisons because of DNA evidence? The point is that the legal system, like any other system, needs public scrutiny and criticism.

Countless cases have been proven years later by prosecutors more interested and competent that the goof offs who handled the original cases and you know it. This would not be a first. Does the Drew Peterson case ring a bell? His second wife's case was ruled an accidental drowning (in a bath tub with no water in it) by the first DA, but a later re-investigation showed what any numbskull could have deduced...she was murdered. Conveniently, the names of those who jumped to the first conclusion have not been released. The fact that Peterson was a cop is probably not important, since DAs are, in general, above reproach and devoid of any political favoritism.

I screw up and I get my rear end sued off...prosecutors screw up and, oh, I forgot. You are immune to litigation for your mistakes.

I know that the average DA is trying to do his or her job honorably, but mistakes are made.

I don't get the high and mighty "we can't discuss this" "don't try the poor guy in the media" "you're jumping to conclusions" attitude of some posters. This is standard office cooler speculation we all do every day about any number of ongoing crime cases. Get over it. This guy is now in the public domain and discussion of his case, by the media and others, is fair comment.

More importantly, this case is bringing scuba diving into a somewhat unfavorable light internationally, so it belongs in this forum
 
Boxcar is technically and factually correct.

I do believe, however, he missed one critical aspect.

Let the prosecution put Dad on the stand and say in front of 12 people that life insurance payouts were discussed before the incident. Regardless of how "commonplace" that may be. A defense attorney who tries to argue that making those changes is normal after a marriage will be looked at as covering up for a dirtbag.

Assume they can prove with the computer that he d*cked around for 10-20 minutes while she died.

Even if they can't prove he cut the air valve off, there is enough circumstantial evidence (Of course, assuming that the media has not completely twisted all the facts) to convince most American's that some greedy kid offed his wife to buy a new car or pay off a gambling debt, etc, etc, etc.

Boxcar - you obviously have some experience. Tell me it wouldn't be difficult to nail him to the wall on emotional testimony alone. I've spent a fair amount of time in court also, albeit from a completely different angle that you, so I defer.

If half the facts are true, hell, if one or two of the facts are true, he looks guilty as sin.
 
I should add also - and I'm sure Box can back this up.

I've had TRAFFIC court cases come up a year / year-half later. TRAFFIC.

The time frame of 5 years for a murder case seems insignificant to me. In Georgia, the statue of limitations for Murder never expires, if I remember correctly from the academy. Either that or like 15 years or something, it's been a long time and I'm not a lawyer :p
 
I believe that prosecutors, like every other human on earth, are prone to error or worse. I believe that some prosecutors might avoid cases that are difficult or time consuming, preferring to keep their conviction rate high. And their work load light. Unless of course, the DA's office is unique in never having lazy, incompetent, ambitious or dishonest people in it. I'll admit that there are plenty of crappy, inept, greedy and lazy doctors. Will you admit that there are crappy, inept, greedy and lazy prosecutors?
You have a mistaken impression about the way a prosecutors office works. Prosecutors work half their career just to be in the position to handle murder trials. There's intense competition to get the big cases, and when you get one, it's a big deal. If your lazy, inept, etc, you would never want to get into that part of the job, and you probably wouldn't be able to make the cut at any rate. You'll probably be happy doing citations and the juvi docket.

There's also a tremendous amount of people looking over your shoulder checking on the progress of the case. The D.A. who assigned you the case, the investigators, family members, etc. There's a good chance that you won't be alone, you will be part of the prosecution team consisting of 2 or 3 lawyers. All of this makes it unlikely that a lone prosecutors would sit on a legitimate murder case because he was lazy and inept.

When a big case comes in, everyone jumps at the chance to prosecute it, and everyone wants to have the case end in a successful prosecution. It's very hard when you think the person is guilty, but know that you don't have enough evidence to go to trial. Or worse, when you think they are guilty, but have a reasonable doubt yourself. But in either of those situations, you shouldn't go to trial.

What you need to be more afraid of is the opposite scenario - prosecutors trying to make cases they shouldn't to enhance their career or just out of the sheer sense competition. In other words, the bias is in the other direction in a murder case.

Cosnider the recent case of a wealthy couple in Denver who brought their battered baby to an ER to die...only much, much later, after a public outcry, did the prosecutors act on the case and bring charges. How about the, er, somewhat less than aggressive pursuit of the Ramsey case? Ted Kennedy's prosecutor was, let's say, somewhat less than aggressive in the Kopechne case as well. Or how about the aggressive pursuit of the Duke rape case? Or the inept prosecution of OJ. Or the countless people being sprung from prisons because of DNA evidence? The point is that the legal system, like any other system, needs public scrutiny and criticism.

Countless cases have been proven years later by prosecutors more interested and competent that the goof offs who handled the original cases and you know it. This would not be a first. Does the Drew Peterson case ring a bell? His second wife's case was ruled an accidental drowning (in a bath tub with no water in it) by the first DA, but a later re-investigation showed what any numbskull could have deduced...she was murdered. Conveniently, the names of those who jumped to the first conclusion have not been released. The fact that Peterson was a cop is probably not important, since DAs are, in general, above reproach and devoid of any political favoritism.
You watch a lot of court tv, or crime news. Certainly more than I do. To the extent I am familiar with those cases, the mostly seem like the prosecution brought cases they shouldn't have because of the reason I warned about above. Certainly the Duke case seems like a prime example of that.

In most cases the lay public is not in a position to say whether the charges should be brought any more than they should tell a patient whether or not they should have a surgery. There is a bit of technical knowledge in conducting a trial that is beyond the scope of what you may have received from your general education. For example, guess what happens if you go to trial with dodgy evidence and lose, and only later discover evidence that would get a win? To bad, so sad, you should have waited until your case was win-able before you brought it. Now the killer walks free.

Media pressure to bring a case is not a good idea, in general, anymore than it would be for the media to pressure a doctor to perform an operation he didn't think was in the patients best interest. The public often isn't as informed on these matters as they believe they are.

I screw up and I get my rear end sued off...prosecutors screw up and, oh, I forgot. You are immune to litigation for your mistakes.
Lawyers sue lawyers for negligence all the time. If you happen to work for the government you can get some immunity, (but not complete immunity) but hey, you could work for the government, and they would provide your insurance.

I know that the average DA is trying to do his or her job honorably, but mistakes are made.

I don't get the high and mighty "we can't discuss this" "don't try the poor guy in the media" "you're jumping to conclusions" attitude of some posters. This is standard office cooler speculation we all do every day about any number of ongoing crime cases. Get over it. This guy is now in the public domain and discussion of his case, by the media and others, is fair comment.

More importantly, this case is bringing scuba diving into a somewhat unfavorable light internationally, so it belongs in this forum
I do agree that this is fair game for discussion, the presumption of innocence is only afforded in Court and during the proceedings. Just FYI, the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" isn't in the Bill of Rights. It's just a short hand way of saying that burden is on the prosecutor to prove guilt, not on the defendant. But it certainly isn't applicable in non-criminal trial context, like an internet forum.

At the same time, realize that your ability to know whether a criminal action should be commenced is as accurate as my ability to know whether a doctor should perform a surgery. Because part of a trial deals with facts, and issues of what is right and what is wrong, sometimes people mistakenly believe that they have an intuitive sense about legal issues. The Law and Order type TV shows reinforce that perception. But the fact is, much of it is technical, and dealing with issues you haven't thought a lot about.
 
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