Diver found missing in Laguna's Shaw's Cove

[peterbj7]

One way I see this unfolding is, like was said, an instructor was leading a group of buddied-up divers. One of the brand new divers lost their buddy, but since everybody looks the same to a brand new diver (and to a lot of experienced divers for that matter),the buddy latched on to another "diver in a wetsuit" and thought that was their buddy. At one point the instructor stops to assess, realizes there's an odd number, tries to figure out who's who and can't, asks everyone to make a safe ascent and at that point the buddy who lost their buddy realizes of it. It gets relayed to the media as a "headcount" when in reality there was more to the story than that

Precisely. Which is why the responsibility of the instructor is so much higher in poor conditions, and why it is important that (s)he takes whatever steps are needed, including the use of certified assistants and/or reduction in class numbers, to ensure (s)he maintains control. It is not acceptable for an instructor to plead that he couldn't see so lost a diver.

And of course we're not talking about "brand new divers". We're talking about unqualified students, who depend utterly on the skills of their instructor.

Personally, it seems to me that something like this could happen to any instructor, no matter how good you are. But then again, I'm not an instructor so ....

Something like this should NEVER happen to an instructor (though it does all too often, even in quite benign conditions). I am an instructor and have taught many students in cold dark opaque British waters. I have never lost a student, because I regard that as a key requirement of my job.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

We're talking about unqualified students, who depend utterly on the skills of their instructor.

Before we get too far into the instructor/student thing, allow me to relay something I was told yesterday by a source I consider to be reliable.
Again, this is what I was TOLD as opposed to what I KNOW.

The husband/wife were FORMER students of the instructor. They were recently certified (not sure how long ago but sounds like a month or two,), had a dive vacation coming up, and asked the instructor to do a beach dive with them as a refresher. My understanding is that it was the three of them, he got separated, and you know the rest.

The first mention of "student" comes from the headline in the Coastline Pilot article which also includes an indirect quote from the police: "The man had been participating in a diving class, police said." There was also a "classmates did a head count and discovered the man was missing" in a revised article. Then we had posted comments of "Where's the insturctor" followed by "In front of the 6+ students" followed by "Why didn't the buddy notify the instructor" followed by "All buddies look alike to new divers."

Now the problem with all of these comments, especially if the information I was given is correct, is that they may have NOTHING to do with this accident. I'm not going to go into one of my anti-speculation rants again but this is what gets me going. We're talking about how instructors can't pay attention to their classes and buddies need to be more aware when this may have simply been three people diving in conditions where one became separated and they couldn't find him. It's more a function of the dive conditions than inattention of the instructor or buddy.

Interestingly, I was talking with a instructor friend of mine who lives in Laguna about this accident and he said he's been avoiding diving all week long because the conditions have been so bad. In fact, another friend of his (also an instrctor) had called him the previous day and jokingly said he ought to come dive because he could get in high surf, limited visiblity, and cold water training all on one dive. But that brings up something that I think IS a legitimate speculative topic: Were conditions conducive to diving, let alone conducive for someone with little or no experience? And if they're under the supervision of an instructor, does/should that make a difference?

We've had two prior fatalities of divers-in-training (advanced, not basic) recently where the decisions to dive might be called into question. One was on the Yukon where the conditions underwater were described as being like a washing machine, and where the official cause of death was listed as head trauma. And we had one at Redondo (Vets Park) during a night dive where other divers were cancelling but a class was taken in and one stuent died during the entry (not sure of the exact cause of death).

If conditions at Laguna were marginal/questionable, and looking at these other two fatalities, I'd say the larger issue to be discussed is whether or not instructors are taking people diving when they perhaps should be cancelling said dive. Are they being pressuredd to get things done? Are they simply not paying attention? Are the students pressuring the instructors not to cancel? Are the instructors not well-enough trained to understand enviromental problems that should cause them to cancel a dive? There may be a pattern developing here and if there is, it's a disturbing one.

- Ken

 

[peterbj7]

Yes Ken, I agree that is the main thrust. My comments were based on these being uncertified students, and I don't withdraw them for those circumstances. If the divers were qualified then much of the onus of responsibility for the dive shifts to them. Though not all, as the conditions may have been worse than the conditions they trained in and they may have accepted the security of diving with an experienced diver they knew (his being an instructor not being directly relevant) and as a consequence not exercised their own judgements. Either way, they patently should not have done this dive in these conditions.

There is the general point that most recreational dive courses are IMO too easy and too dumbed down, and the full significance of what a diver is about to do is not taught and is glossed over. One thing I learned many years ago early in my technical dive training is that it really is up to the diver to assess conditions for himself, and he can NEVER rely on anyone else except in closely defined circumstances (such as during a tech training course). I have always tried to be self-sufficient underwater, and I try to teach that philosophy to my students, even though it makes courses longer and runs counter to the "instant gratification" spirit.

 

[Gill]

And we had one at Redondo (Vets Park) during a night dive where other divers were cancelling but a class was taken in and one stuent died during the entry (not sure of the exact cause of death).

I read that the determination was that the student had a heart attack.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

The hardest lesson learned seems to be when not to dive. I've had too many dives when I was pressured by others to dive in marginal conditions and have witnessed others suffer injuries including broken bones while diving in high surf. Ken is the only instructor I have ever seen tell a student that they were not going in that day. He had a young woman who needed one more dive to certify before going to Catalina the following day. As I recall, Ken went with her to get in that last dive due to the rough conditions at Redondo Beach.

 

[Hatul]

I wonder if he was injured inside the rocky reef. In heavy surge the swim-throughs can be dangerous.

 

[Bopper]

Now the problem with all of these comments, especially if the information I was given is correct, is that they may have NOTHING to do with this accident. I'm not going to go into one of my anti-speculation rants again but this is what gets me going....

....But that brings up something that I think IS a legitimate speculative topic: Were conditions conducive to diving, let alone conducive for someone with little or no experience? And if they're under the supervision of an instructor, does/should that make a difference?

- Ken

I read that the determination was that the student had a heart attack.

Hmmmm....OK. So this is how it works: We speculate based on what we know and it's wrong because it might not have anything to do with the cause. You speculate on what you know, it turns out it may not to have anything to do with the cause and....what? Please tell us so that we can all understand the Ken Kurtis Rules of this forum.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Please tell us so that we can all understand . . .

You really ought to try to get that sneer out of your keyboard when typing . . .

First of all, the "heart attack" Gill referred to dealt with, I believe, the fatality at Vets Park that I mentioned in post #12, not the current fatality in Laguna Beach being dicussed. I was going to ask Gill privately where he got that info from, because it is rare for the L.A. County Coroner to list COD as heart attack in any circumstance, let alone diving fatalities. (I plan to check with the Coroner tomorrow to see what the official COD in that case was.) So Bopper, I think you've already melded two cases together.

Although I know your request wasn't really sincere, I'll be happy to try to answer it for you anyhow: Things that are KNOWN are FACTS. Things that are GUESSED are SPECULATION.

In this particular incident:

1. FACT: Diving conditions were marginal all week and while they improved a bit by Friday, were certainly less-than-ideal. (This opens the door for the discussion of site assesment and what role it might have played.)

2. FACT: The diver got separated from his group. (This opens the door for a host of talking points, including supervision, buddy awareness, dealing with a separation on the part of the separated diver, and others.)

3. SPECULATION: These were uncertified divers. (Based on the newspaper article calling them students, which must mean "uncertified" because if it was an Advanced class or a Divemaster class, the newspaper would certainly have made that distinction. And this is all the while ignoring that we constantly see people pointing out in these threads things the media has called true which are not.)

4. SPECULATION: That if it's a class, it must have been more than a couple of people and the number 6 was floated. (Apparently not true, but fed off of specualtion in #3.)

5. SPECULATION: That if it's a class of 6, then perhaps the buddy teams weren't specifically assigned, or people got confused as to who was who, or the instructor wasn't watching. (None of this seems to have been true, but it all fed off of speculation in #4.)

So Bopper, that's where I'm coming from. If I've incorrectly called something YOU PERSONALLY KNOW to be speculation, please point that out to me, cite your verification source, and I'll be the first to fall on my sword and apologize for castigating your information.

And don't get me wrong, these are all good things to talk about. But maybe not in this thread in this forum unless they relate specifically to this accident. Because if you want to understand this accident (and don't forget sometimes non-diving family members of the deceased look through these posts), then I think the dicussion points should be relatively confined to what we know about this accident.

I appreciate that you pointed out in post #10 that you're not an instructor. I freely cop to the notion that my having been an active teaching NAUI instructor for the last 33 years may color my opinions somewhat and I simply don't see things as clearly as I might if I wasn't so prejudiced and jaded by all that damned information, knowledge, and perspective that rolls around in my head. I'll try to be more wary of that in the future.



- Ken

 

[LACounty4806]

Exciting topic here. First off Ken, that is a horrible picture of you. You look much younger and infomercial friendly in person. Work on that. Secondly, this whole forum is hijacked by the gossip girl crowd who don't teach and who have never worked as a dive professional. I know boards like this are supposed to be about exchanging information but I also don't think talking out your spare air helps anyone when the last open water class you experienced was you own. Get in the game and work with students before you start second guessing trained instructors. Also, as Ken has pointed out, wait until you know the facts before you sit behind your computer keyboard and make your 1000th post an embarrassing one. The diving lifestyle is a cool one. Try to live up to the standard. Read and learn about how you want to teach when you take the next step in your diving career. Save the funny conjecture for David Caruso and the CSI chat room.

 

[Sam Miller III]

As always ! Well done Ken!
May I add a few thoughts....

As I recall Shaw's cove in Laguna is a south facing beach and always has a pounding shore break. In the winter months it is protected from the storms originating from the north and generally provides acceptable conditions for diving and dive training. In the summer months most storms originate off Baja and pound directly into Shaw's. We are now in a transitional period in which there is always a disturbed ocean. This time of the year is generally not a good time to dive Laguna beach.

The mark of a good knowledgeable diver is to admit the conditions are not acceptable for diving and abort the dive. In this case the instructor and class originated at a inland shop in Tustin (Limburtis?) and rather than aborting after dedication the day for diving and traveling so far chose to dive in extreme sub standard conditions resulting in a tragic avoidable death.

What ever happened to knowledgeable well trained instructors?

A side bar for those who are familiar with Shaw's Cove. This is the cove where the Battle of Laguna Beach originated in 1961-2 culminating in the Laguna Beach dive ordnance. What a battle it was! But it established the right to dive and in this case die in Laguna Beach. As I reflect there are only two are still alive who fought that battle. Ken, Some time in the near future before it is too late we should chat about the battle .

SDM
NAUI Instructor number 27
LA Co Underwater instructor number 11
PADI etc