Diver drowns in guided cenote dive

[John C. Ratliff]

What in Heaven's name makes you think I am against cave training. I earlier stated that some portions were not overhead environments. But if these tourist divers were going into caves, then cave training is appropriate (that information was not evident from the article).

The Warm Mineral Springs Underwater Archaeological Project was considered cave diving by both Sonny Cockrell and Larry Murphy. It was the first time I started diving an octopus regulator. And this was after I became a NAUI Instructor (in 1975, octopus regulators were not yet considered necessary). Larry talked to me, and made me promise that from then on I would dive the octopus on my system, and he gave me a splitter to enable me to do so.

In order to prevent this death from repeating, somehow we need to influence the tour operators, or the Mexican government, to require more extensive training. Did you look at the advertisements I posted? They explicitly stated that no special training was required. This seems to be a contributing factor in this fatality.

SeaRat

 

[Jack Hammer]

In order to prevent this death from repeating, somehow we need to influence the tour operators, or the Mexican government, to require more extensive training. Did you look at the advertisements I posted? They explicitly stated that no special training was required. This seems to be a contributing factor in this fatality.

John, this is the most relevant thing you've said. It's still not enough, an OW diver died in an overhead because he shouldn't have been there to begin with. It was totally preventable and the problem goes much deeper than Mexico...

 

[The Chairman]

Did you look at the advertisements I posted? They explicitly stated that no special training was required. This seems to be a contributing factor in this fatality.

That's not a contributing factor: it's the MAIN factor. That's what I call willful ignorance. I'll almost guarantee that they went into the overhead. The rules are different in Mexico when it comes to what's acceptable for cave diving. Lot's of denial about what is and isn't overhead. Unfortunately, I've seen it with my own eyes. It's all over Youtube. That's why its a "Deceptively Easy Way to Die!" Try to point it out and it's just like this discussion: NO ONE WANTS TO SAY NO TO THE TOURISTS. I get it. They are willing to sacrifice a few tourists to the Gods of commerce.

Why isn't the guide an actual Cave Instructor? The only time a non-instructor should be guiding anyone is when they are diving with the limits of the client's training. Yet, here we have a non- cave instructor taking an OW diver into an overhead environment. How many times do you have to pull the trigger before you get that this "Mexican Roulette" is stupid dangerous. Hey, this is going to piss a few people off, but I like to be blunt when it comes to safety.

My safety is my business. I have gotten the training to be a cave diver. I've spent tons of money on equipment, gas and training to make it as safe as possible. Even then, I hire a guide when I'm there, and I have made sure that she's the best available. There's no need to take unnecessary risks with your life. I certainly don't feel a need to die prematurely.

What @JohnnyC and I are seething at is the sheer ignorance displayed here. What you don't know is going to hurt others as well as yourself. I've been diving since 1969 and have blown my share of bubbles and have seen way too many divers die. It doesn't have to be this way. It's my opinion that ignorance and indifference are the main killers in our sport. If this is still acceptable to you, then keep missing the point. Untrained divers need to be kept out of overhead environments. If you don't respect the cave, it will exact a horrible penalty for your arrogance. If you can't say "No" to untrained tourists, then the deaths will continue.

 

[Bob DBF]

No, he hasn't. He's trying to justify ignorance. That makes it willful ignorance. The only way to prevent more deaths is to educate OW divers to the perils of diving overheads. All of my students see "A Deceptively Easy Way to DIe" and we discuss the fact that they shouldn't be diving the Andrea Doria as their first OW dive after certification either. It's not that hard to educate them to not risk their lives needlessly

I'm not the diver that shortened the OW classes, and turned over the book training of divers to a computer, and minimized the interaction with instructors. Personally, I am surprised there are not more fatalities than there are, in and out of caves.

My initial training was as much about exercising good judgement than just SCUBA skills. Years later (1980), in a NAUI/PADI OW class, the emphasis was also on exercising good judgement, and the instructor did not have to give a certification if he thought you were a danger to yourself or others. A lot of the class time was spent discussing why and how to stay out of dangerous situations. None of the training by catch phrase so popular today.

There is no way to prevent more deaths is to educate OW divers to the perils of diving overheads, unless there is time in the OW class to have a productive discussion. That goes for a number of other judgement calls that a diver will have to make. Since this is not the direction the SCUBA industry is going...

But let's look at it like the SCUBA industry, SCUBA is simple, easy, fun, and rarely does anyone get hurt or die, so there is not a problem with the training for certification.


Bob

 

[The Chairman]

Caveat: there are no government rules concerning cave diving in the USA except at a few State owned caves (Like the Peacock system). The access to the Florida aquifer is self regulated by the divers, instructors and shops. That's the culture here and I've seen cavers confront OW divers in the caves and escort them out of the caves. We care. Very, very rarely will a student die on a dive in the cave in Florida. When it does happen, the instructor is vilified almost immediately. We take this stuff seriously. It's our culture and we're not afraid to say no to tourists.

 

[The Chairman]

I'm not the diver that shortened the OW classes

Bob, I'm a big fan of the changes I've seen in OW classes. Far more emphasis on being trim and neutral is a good thing in my neck of the woods.

But treating an overhead like it's OW is a large part of the problem. Trying to educate the OW student how to dive an overhead safely in their OW class is not a sane way to do this. They need to be taught to get the right training first. It's just nuts to do this differently.

 

[John C. Ratliff]

NetDoc,

Using the DeJoy model (above), the requirements were one of several factors in this fatal accidents. It is an "Enabling Factor." The guide allowing this type of diving would be a "Reinforcing Factor." It is reinforcing poor dive practices as being "safe."

But there are two other areas to address. These are the "Environment," and "Person-Machine Communications." Training needs to incorporate all of these areas.

The macro- and micro-environment is much different than what is taught in open water courses. And, the ambient physical environment changes quickly in caves.

I could go into the details, but you are already aware of them. So the question is how to effect change so that this doesn't happen again? This is the reason for detailed accident investigation--providing interventions which effectively prevent all the contributing factors from happening again.

SeaRat

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

First, I'm not cave trained. At all (but it is definitely in my plans). I have dived 4 cenotes in the Yucatan not long after I had started diving. I'd say that on the first day, diving in Chacmool/Kukulkan (if memory serves me correctly) we did have to swim a fair bit through a cave to an air pocket. Now people may call this a swim through, but it took a bit, and I'd certainly call it a cave. There were not any lines at this point and we went through a thermocline. Was it possible to get lost? I don't remember as this was a couple years ago. But I do remember that it was pitch black at some point (so no longer the definition of a cavern where you can see light). Now, I had sufficient air and I don't panic. But did I belong there? Nope. It was a "trust me" sort of situation, something I know better about today. Most of the people going there were fairly new, and they follow the guide. Looking back at it, I wouldn't say that this is diving in a safe manner, but that's the reality of the situation from my limited experience. My guide was a cave instructor however with backmounted doubles.

 

[Tzymische]

John C. Ratliff aka SeaRat => I am not, by any means as experienced as you - and probably will never be. I am only diving for about 3 years (but pulling about 150-200 dives a year) and working on my full cave certification - I got as far as Intro decided to stop and do some easy cave dives to get more experience and maybe a bit later when I decide I feel like I am ready I will go ahead and finish with full cave training. So let's assume here for a second I do know a little bit about caves and cave diving and it is first hand experience.

One thing I was told on my first experience in caves by one of (great) instructors I was fortunate to meet, he said:
'Doesnt matter if you have 10 000 dives or 100 dives - if you never dove in caves you never dove in caves - your first cave dive is your first cave dive. Period'.

Hard to disagree with it - If you never been into the cave, never did cave diving - you have ZERO, NULL - non experience in it and ZERO knowledge. End of story.
I've seen experienced divers, with 1000's dives under they belt, aborting cave dives in first 10m - its jut NOT for everyone and if you never experienced it - you are not qualified at all. Just like someone who never scuba dived in their life is not qualified to talk about scuba diving...

On the other hand - I would recommend to get cave diving training even just cavern or intro - by miles the course I did was the best experience I've ever had. Nothing opens your eyes to dangers and proper procedure like 200m (maybe it was less but felt like 100 miles though) return it total darkness (simulated failure of all lights) when following line by touch and communicating with your buddy by touch... try it. And then - come back here...

 

[Lorenzoid]

Does anyone know what the statistics are on guided cenote dive deaths? It's been said on SB more than once that they have proven surprisingly safe, especially in the years since the guides adopted the safety guidelines. Has something changed?

They absolutely are "trust me" dives, but there is more to it than the trust me dives I have encountered in other places. If the divers and guide are all on the same page, following what they're supposed to do, then I can see how divers who have more insight into such things than I do can have made statements like "the safety record is impressive." I bet it has been. When I (OW diver) did some of these dives, including Calavera, I was impressed with the briefing and instructions. I was fully aware of the trust-me nature of the dives, but I made what I thought was a relatively calculated assessment of the risk. It seems to me that almost every day we put our lives in other people's hands. It's all relative. I felt safer doing the cenote dives under those circumstances than some of the casual follow-the-DM swim-throughs I have seen other OW divers do.

If someone isn't familiar with this sticky: A word to the wise on cenote diving

So, has something changed? What does this incident do to the statistics? I would guess that more divers are visiting than ever before.