Diver drowns in guided cenote dive

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Johnny ... I'm not familiar with this specific cave, as it's not one of the ones I dived on my trips to MX. Question I would have is how far off the cavern line are the jumps into the caves. From the map there appear to be multiple entries. I do know that in some of the caves I did visit, the jumps were not very far ... in a couple cases you could probably span them with a double-ender. And I do know that it's easy for even a trained diver to find themselves suddenly on a line that's not the one they thought they were on ... for an untrained diver it would be even easier, particularly if they looked away for a second or two while swimming or fiddling with a camera. I also know ... although not in this specific case ... that not all of the cavern lines are gold line. MX isn't like Florida, in that there seem to be few standards used that would apply to all of the popular systems. And while diving there is significantly easier, physically, than Florida it's also significantly easier to stray or get lost inside those caves as a result.

Not suggesting anything other than that straying off the cavern line may not have been an intentional act ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I know what a cenote is. I'm a cave diver. I trained in Mexico. I have dived in Calavera. There is cave in Calavera. They found the body in the CAVE zone of the Calavera cenote beyond the reaper signs. The cave zone in Calavera at such a depth that embolizing while within the cave is so highly unlikely as to state that there would have to be serious extenuating circumstances, such as an already present lung over-expansion injury which would have prevented the dive in the first place. Other (cave) divers retrieved the body. Simply because their statements are not in the police report does not mean that they do not have the all of the information required to make an accurate estimation of the circumstances that lead to the divers death.

I know an awful lot about attention to detail. I'm a cave diver. I'm a rebreather diver. Detail is important in certain things. In this instance, detail is not important.

I know quite a few PJ's too (and fighter pilots, and weps guys, and TACP's, and all sorts of people who live and die by attention to details). If a PJ jumps out of a plane and never pulls his chute, he's dead because of the sudden stop. There may be reasons he did not deploy his chute, but aside from a medical event during freefall, it's still the stop that kills him. This is literally exactly the same thing, except it's drowning instead of the sudden deceleration. And in this case, there's nothing NEW to learn about how not to die in a cave. (And let's not get into semantics, if you start talking about AAD's not firing I'm hitting ignore.)

We don't need to analyze this most current diver death. We know all we need to know, he went into the cave, he was not trained, he did not have the right equipment, he died. What you want to do is assign blame (ironically you quote a post about "blamestorming") but you want to disguise it as "analysis."

I get the feeling that you're not a cave diver, not familiar with diving in Mexico, definitely not familiar with Calavera, and whatever "Professional Safety" experience you have, it has very little to do with cave diving, and thus in this case, irrelevant.
JohnnyC,

You have said a lot in five short paragraphs. Let me respond.

In your first paragraph, you state things that are not in the cited article. You appear to have communications with the cave divers who recovered the body. Is that correct? If so, it would have been helpful if you had said that. If not...

I'm glad you know about attention to detail, as with cave diving and rebreather diving, that is quite important. But it is also important in accident investigation. I'll get into that a bit later here.

Concerning PJs, I'm glad you know a couple. I was one from 1967 to 1975, so I know a bit about the subject too. SMSgt. Gorny talked to me about attention to detail when we were flying the first trans-Pacific flight of helicopters in 1970. You mentioned free fall parachuting; that was developed for Pararescue after I left the service (we used static line parachutes only during my time). But I have heard a lot about free fall parachuting. There are Hi-Low and Hi-Hi jumps (jumping from high altitude, and opening at a low altitude, and jumping from high altitude and opening high, then gliding on those great new parachutes for several miles from the jump point). In either case, these jumps sometimes occur at greater than 10,000 feet altitude, and the jumper must therefore be breathing oxygen to remain conscious during the jump--especially for the Hi-Hi scenario. If that jumper doesn't pull the rip cord, and ends up falling to his death, the USAF would do as much as possible to determine why that happened. The reason, it could be a defective oxygen breathing unit, or it could be something entirely different that they need to train for.

You stated above, "...We don't need to analyze this most current diver death. We know all we need to know..." Well, we don't know all we need to know. You also stated, "..he went into the cave, he was not trained, he did not have the right equipment, he died." If we were using the Five Why's methodology, you have just stated three of the "whys."
1. Why did he go into the cave?
2. Why was he not trained?
3. Why did he not have the right equipment?
Answer these "why's," and we have the beginning of understanding this accident. He went into this cenote with three other people, a guide and two other tourists. Another "why" is then suggested:
4. Why didn't the other two tourists die?
An answer that they gave was that he "strayed," went off on his own. The other two tourists, who survived this dive, did not. Here's the fifth "Why":
5. Why did he stray?
But this is only the first step in the Five Whys Analysis, called "Define the Problem." The second step involves using "...this path to investigate why the problem as not detected." The third step uses "...this path to investigate the systemic root cause(s)." From that, in the semiconductor industry, we go to "Corrective Action with Responsibility," with an "Action Owner," and a "Date Due." In short, the Five Whys process involves asking "why" five times in three different steps. We then look to "Lessons Learned," and what is the "Process Change Break Point." For a training course, I put together a Five Whys Analysis concerning the Furgusen Police Department and the shooting of Michael Brown. This illustrates the process I'm talking about. (If I can find it, I have a more applicable use of Five Whys Analysis, but I need to get onto my other computer, so this part of my post may change.)

How would this help? It would define whether a warning is needed for these types of tourist diving operations, or whether this is instead a situation where one diver caused his own demise.

Finally, about my "experience" as stated in your last paragraph. I've been diving probably longer than you have been alive (1959). I was diving when there were no instructional courses available in my community; we had to import Roy France, LA County Underwater Instructor, to teach us the course three years after I started diving. I was a NAUI instructor when we were defining courses such as wreck diving, cave diving and under-ice diving (when the National Association of Cave Divers was just beginning). I dove with Sonny Cockrell and Larry Murphy in 1975 on the Warm Mineral Springs Underwater Archaeological Project in Florida, setting up their emergency procedures for air evacuations if there were a decompression incident (that was when I was still a PJ, and had connections with the 55th ARRSq). We pioneered use of oxygen decompression during that three months. No, I don't consider myself a cave diver, nor am I a rebreather diver; at age 70 I probably won't venture into caves or use a rebreather (although that is tempting). I do collect, repair and dive vintage diving equipment, and continue to dive my local area though. My safety experience is such that I can and do participate in these discussions, as I have knowledge that may be helpful in understanding these situations.

Now, one thing that should be discussed is the "Hierarchy of Controls," a concept in professional safety about which controls are most effective. You will note on the Appendix G from the American National Standard for Occupational Health and Safety Management Systems, ANSI/AIHA Z10-2005, that the training you discuss is just above PPE as the least effective form of control. Elimination, substitution and engineering controls are much more effective than warnings, administrative controls (training, procedures, etc.) and the use of PPE. Cave diving must of necessity use these less effective control methods, but realize that they are not very effective. Guide lines would be considered an engineering control, but only if one was clipped in so as to maintain positive contact at all times.

I hope this gives you a bit different perspective of me; I also hope that some of the ego I saw in your post will dissipate, and we can have a good discussion of this accident. There are other accident models, such as David DeJoy's Human Factors Model of Accident Causation, that would shed more light on some of the issues with this accident.

SeaRat
John C. Ratliff, CSP, CIH, MSPH
 

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I believe Johnny's point was as obvious as it is pertinent: You don't break the rules of safe cave diving with impunity. Odds are, if you are pulled lifeless from a cave, you broke one of Sheck's guidelines presented in his book "Safe Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival"

Many of these guided dives in Mexico are nothing but "Trust me Dives". These tourists are relying on someone else for their survival and that's just wrong on many levels. They don't know what they don't know and are risking their lives for a thrill. There's nothing down there worth dying to see. Get the training. Get the mind set. Stop the needless deaths. FWIW, click on the book to order your very own copy. It won't replace a cave class, but it is used in most of them.
 
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JohnnyC,

Well, let's see, you edited your post to shorten it, and said before editing that you wound not read my post--that suggests ego, and an unwillingness to learn. You talked about PJs jumping, and yet you have no experience as a PJ. And you say I have no reason to comment, yet I'm probably the only diver here who also has directly investigated both diving and industrial fatalities. If this were a cave diving forum, I could see your point (note--I haven't been posting there). It is not, and is an open discussion area for anyone to become involved in.

NetDoc,

About Alexander Springs, I both scuba dived and snorkeled there. I don't recall any opening greater than about 12 inches there.

Yes, this guy probably broke one of Sheck Exley's rules; but again, why? He was apparently from Spain. Did they cover that in his diving class? What agency was he trained by? CMAS standards? Was he aware of the hazards? Is there something that the certifying agency can learn about their own coursework that could prevent these kinds of deaths in the future?

By the way, Sheck Exley is not one to emulate, even though he did a lot for cave diving. He passed away probably breaking his own rules:
Death[edit]
Exley died, aged 45, on April 6, 1994 while attempting to descend to a depth of over 1,000 feet (300 m) in a freshwater cenote, or sinkhole, called Zacatón in the state of Tamaulipas, Mexico.[8][9][17] He made the dive as part of a dual dive with Jim Bowden, but Bowden aborted his descent early when his gas supply ran low. Exley's body was recovered when his support crew hauled up his unused decompression tanks, when it was found that he had looped into the descent line, perhaps to sort out gas issues.[8][9] His wrist-mounted dive computer read a maximum depth of 906 feet (276 m).[18]

The cause of Exley's death could not be determined. Team members concluded the causes "...could include stress of HPNSexacerbated by the narcotic effects of nitrogen at that depth".[19] The line was also wrapped (deliberately) around Exley's tank valves. Bowden and other experts have theorized that Exley may have done this in anticipation of his own death to prevent any dangerous body recovery operations.[8]
Sheck Exley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The question remains, why do people break these rules, even extremely highly experienced people such as Sheck Exley?

SeaRat
 
..... I'm a cave diver......
......What you want to do is assign blame.... .

Part of the reason cave divers get so passionate about incidents is exactly what you mentioned. "People want to assign blame". When an incident happens in FL cave country, the media & un-informed take a very broad brush and say close the cave to ALL divers to prevent another tragedy from happening there ever again and all cave divers are to blame.

That's why you see so many cave divers standing up screaming to say it's not right to close off caves because one person(s) broke the rules.

How many ocean wrecks have people screamed to be closed to all divers because someone had an incident on the wreck? Alot.
 
About Alexander Springs, I both scuba dived and snorkeled there. I don't recall any opening greater than about 12 inches there.
Situational Awareness would help you out here. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't or isn't there.

but again, why?
You're kidding, right? I take it from your confusion that you aren't cave trained by the NSS-CDS or a similar agency. What you don't know will kill you. Relying on someone else for your survival can be deadly. Why did he trust his guide? The guy (or girl) was a good salesman. Whatever the reason, it really doesn't matter. What matters is that he broke the rules and is now dead. Takeaway? DON'T BREAK THE RULES! The rules were determined by accident analysis and are not capricious. People die from their own ignorance. You don't have to repeat their mistakes.

By the way, Sheck Exley is not one to emulate, even though he did a lot for cave diving. He passed away probably breaking his own rules:
Apparently, reading a snippet on Wikipedia about Sheck does not cure your ignorance. Neither will it make you a cave diver. In the years since the Blueprint for Survival was printed, we have learned even more through accident analysis. Sheck was doing some amazing dives. Real ground breaking stuff. Since then, most of us have learned the folly of trying to set depth records. Look at Doc Deep's ill fated attempt last year. Many on SB even predicted his death. We couldn't do that back when Sheck died. Yet, just last week someone had to keep trying to set the record. It's stupid. You want to know the reason? Stupidity amplified by ignorance and denial.

You claim @JohnnyC is arrogant and again your ignorance is evident. It's obvious to any real caver why this happened and how it should have been avoided. We aren't interested in reading you or anyone else justify the idiocy of diving caves without the proper training, skills, gear and mindset. It's stupid. It's time to stop the madness. Say "No" to trust me dives. Say "No" to diving in caves without the proper training. There's nothing down there worth dying for.
 
NetDoc and JohnnyC,

If you are unwilling to look at the "whys" of this accident, how do you change what I am seeing in this advertisement?

No special qualifications are required for cavern diving.
Dive trips for the cenotes including Calavera
Dive in Tulum's famous Cenote Calavera with Maya Diving


The Bat Cave

Starting from the East Eye again, now you head into another realm. As you follow the line you enter a tunnel like area and for a minute you have to look around to find light sources other than your lights but they are always reassuringly close. It gets darker and you come into a beautiful area with the most delicate and beautiful formations. Your guide gives the signal to surface and you come up with formations only a foot or two above your heads and when you look up you can see and hear bats in all the little crevices. A natural light beam is coming down from the roof of the cavern that you are at the edge of and the crystal clear water sparkles and reflects the light around. You descend again and skirt the edges of the cave. All along the edges there are beautiful formations. You leave the cave behind and follow another short tunnnel which joins back to your original line just before you arrive back at the East Eye again.
Dive in Cenote Dos Ojos with Maya Diving in Tulum.
This to me fits the definition of an overhead environment, yet the same statement is given, that no special training is required. This, under Dr. David DeJoy's Human Factors Model for Accident Causation, comes under the "Decision Making" portion, and is an "Enabling Factor."



SeaRat
 
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I believe Johnny's point was as obvious as it is pertinent: You don't break the rules of safe cave diving with impunity. Odds are, if you are pulled lifeless from a cave, you broke one of Sheck's guidelines presented in his book "Safe Cave Diving: A Blueprint for Survival"

Well if you are not a cave diver your chances of reading that particular book are pretty small. And considering the latitude given to instructors to certify OW divers, they may or may not discuss the finer points of overhead enverionments.

John has made a good case of why and how to prevent this from happening by treating it as you would a workplace accident, which it was. Passing it off as a stupid act of a diver, which I admit it was, overlooks the fact that he was on a guided tour and in such an invironment, the accident should not happen. Whether these tours are smart is irrelevant since they are someone else's rice bowl and legal, so let's try to make them safe.


Bob
-----------------------
Has mostly avoided caves
 
If you are unwilling to look at the "whys" of this accident,
We know the "whys" of this accident. Why are you unwilling to accept that you should be trained to do this dive? It's like looking for the "whys" we shouldn't play chicken. It's dangerous and sooner or later someone is going to die... again. Why is that not enough reason? There's simply nothing in a cavern or cave worthy of your death to see. Requiring the right training can prevent more deaths. Why is this an arrogant position? How is this an arrogant attitude?
John has made a good case of why and how to prevent this from happening
No, he hasn't. He's trying to justify ignorance. That makes it willful ignorance. The only way to prevent more deaths is to educate OW divers to the perils of diving overheads. All of my students see "A Deceptively Easy Way to DIe" and we discuss the fact that they shouldn't be diving the Andrea Doria as their first OW dive after certification either. It's not that hard to educate them to not risk their lives needlessly.
Whether these tours are smart is irrelevant since they are someone else's rice bowl and legal, so let's try to make them safe
There is simply no way to make them safe without the proper training. Why is this so hard to understand? There's nothing down there worth dying for. Get the training or don't do the dives. Buy the gear, or don't do the dives. Develop the skills or don't do the dives. Maintain your attitude or, wait for it... DON'T DO THE DIVES!

While we are at it, let's over complicate reasons we shouldn't play Russian Roulette, jump off of a cliff because your friends are doing it or tell your wife she needs to lose weight.
 
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