Diver drowns in guided cenote dive

[John C. Ratliff]

Great post, Qnape. You did the right thing, and everyone got out. That's the main objective. It reminds me of a USAF dive trip, where I was divemastering, and pulled the guys out right at 12 hours before we went flying. I had to swim out, snorkeling, dive down and tap some of them on the shoulder to get them out. There was a reason for that rule too, but some of the guys were not happy.

SeaRat

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . . Our Cavern course in 2011 was taught in the cenotes using the NACD standard and course materials, although I wound up with a TDI certification due to paperwork snafus with NACD and our instructor. It was both the strictest and most useful course I've completed. We used the certification to independently dive in two cenotes without a guide (and yes, our certifications were checked before we were allowed to do so). . . .

I have often wondered whether a Cavern card would be accepted for diving cenotes without a guide.

 

[glassbottom]

Then I'm out. I don't understand someone bitching about taking stuff out of context and then doing the same thing. Y'all have fun. I'm unsubscribing here.

Before you go I would like to pose a question that is semi-related here. I have read the 20+ pages of replies and quibbling here and frankly I understand both stances and all parties make solid points.

I am an, admittedly, inexperienced diver and I do spend a solid amount of my diving currently focused on skills, mostly staying neutrally buoyant and level in the water. I am fairly.....ok....at it but I still work on it because its not second nature yet and that's where I want my buoyancy to be and as a result my SAC rate is still fairly high.

I also understand the "just say no" approach and I have always (until recent the recent exception) applied it as a tenant to my diving approach. Even at springs like Morrison I have stated to my buddy I will not enter the cavern and if my buddy choses to its at his own risk and I will run the "lost buddy" drill at that point (or more recently rely on my "instabuddy" al30 I sling when I don't know my buddy well enough).

So that brings me to this weekend. I wanted to be able to get some dives in before the season really kicked off for me and wanted some easy relaxing dives to work on skills. Generally in my area of the world (Panhandle/Tallahassee) that's springs. So I start looking and notice that a lot that I have grown to love (ie: Troy, Morrison etc) are blown out thanks to the rain. And that brings me to Ginnie. I give them a call and they say its great.

So I start looking and I see a lot of information on the ballroom being basically the main attraction for OW divers. I even found this thread and this thread most seemed fine with it for current OW cards. (as an aside that galaxy dive, while cool, sounds borderline like a cave dive given its at night/dusk)

Still knowing im responsible for me I approach it with caution with my buddy. we drop down and I start by looking in from the outside. I see a lot of flutter kickers (like 15+) messing about and not silting it up, the sand on the outside is heavy and settles quick, and the flow is strong and theres a large guid line (basically a dock line). So we surface and talk and decide okay lets check it out. We do, its mundane, we spend about 15 minutes in there, most of which im watching a cave student learn to run line (gives me a point of focus to work on buoyancy).

Regardless this was an overhead and im not cavern or cave trained. But nearly ALL the information I found, including here, including by many commenting in this thread, said it was okay. And my own self assessment said its okay. But I did break my "just say no" approach. Now I know this was an exception but many of the divers (who seemed to posses less skill in buoyancy and NB than me), well I have no clue on what their thoughts or cautions were.

FWIW I spent the rest of the my dives checking out the other caverns and in that little 5 foot "river" between them working on frog kicks and checking to see if I was silting.

But I HAVE to ask, as I spent most of this thread with my experience at Ginnie last weekend as a point of reference what your thoughts are on Ginnies ballroom and the rules there.

EDIT: and please, Im not trying to stir up trouble, Im genuinely curious. Is ginnie an exception to the rule or am I a dork for going beyond my training, or both?

 

[Lorenzoid]

@glassbottom, the Ginnie Ballroom cavern is a prime example of how messy the issue of overheads for OW divers really is. The first time I visited Ginnie, my wife and I decided not to visit the Ballroom because, despite the fact that Ginnie Outdoors explicitly allows it and many OW divers take advantage of that, it would be contrary to the "no overheads" rule we were taught. So we messed around for 30 minutes in the spring and that was that--boring, but we felt we did the right thing. For the same reason, we also generally don't do the swim-throughs in Cozumel. So, we were pretty smug about being good little "just say no" people. A year or so later we found ourselves interested in GUE, and it was abundantly clear that they frown on entering overheads, including the Ballroom. GUE doesn't even have the equivalent of other agencies' Cavern course--it's not until Cave 1 that GUE says you are now prepared to train in an overhead. But the reality is that "everyone" visits the Ballroom, and very few people get into trouble doing so, and eventually we sheepishly visited the Ballroom. Some time later, we did a few of the cenote dives in Mexico that have been the subject of this thread. After that, we took a Cavern course with a TDI instructor--and learned still more reasons why we probably should stay out of caverns unless we're better prepared. We feel very conflicted about the whole overhead thing. That the Ballroom is considered fair game for OW divers is an example of what makes the issue so messy and confusing to some of us.

 

[glassbottom]

Yeah it was a dive that left me (and I still am) very conflicted.

We modified/padded their gas rules (we swapped tanks, went in with 3000 psi and left with 2000psi) and I was slinging my al30 on top of that. Their rules were to enter with nothing less than 2000 psi and leave with no less than 1000-1500 psi if I recall). We also had 2 lights each (though most, including those renting gear only had 1). And that cavern was dark in the back (I put my light to my hand to get a feel )

No one had helmets or anything like that and that seemed to me to be the biggest danger in case someone shot to the roof due to a stuck inflator or bad buoyancy etc. Both of us were comfortable with our frog kicks and buoyancy that the cavern seemed manageable for US but there were definitely some in there where that wasn't the case.

I'm not going to be doing it again anytime soon and I guess I beat Murphy last weekend but I did what I could, both pre dive and during it to try and stay as safe as possible in spite of my training (which goes back to the Wes Skiles comments etc that grateful was making)

 

[boulderjohn]

It sure seems to me that these last comments are indicative of a need for a solid course on the topic of the relative dangers of different overhead environments.

 

[Lorenzoid]

It sure seems to me that these last comments are indicative of a need for a solid course on the topic of the relative dangers of different overhead environments.

After all the reading I've done and instruction I've received on the topic, I still don't feel capable of deciding where to draw the line when I'm faced with a particular situation. Maybe your course is different.

 

[glassbottom]

It sure seems to me that these last comments are indicative of a need for a solid course on the topic of the relative dangers of different overhead environments.

That was definitely a take away I discussed with my dive buddy as we packed up and left and something I may do in the future.

 

[The Chairman]

But I HAVE to ask, as I spent most of this thread with my experience at Ginnie last weekend as a point of reference what your thoughts are on Ginnies ballroom and the rules there.

First: I am not an arbiter of what is safe/unsafe for any particular diver. I'm only the arbiter for me. In fact, my second rule of diving is that you can call a dive at any time, for any reason, with no questions asked and no repercussions. It's my rule of fun, which means if you're not having fun, then you need to stop until you can resolve what ever is stealing your fun. Or not dive.

Secondly: While I wasn't present for this accident, I have dove a number of systems in the area. Compared to North Central Florida, they are very chaotic. They don't follow the same conventions and a number of people putting in lines don't seem to have safety as their primary concern. The two cave communities have far different motivations and cultures. Consequently, I find the caves in Mexico unnecessarily unsafe. I get the idea that they are more interested in earning the yankee dollar and are willing to sacrifice a few tourists here and there in order to do. Not everyone in Mexico is like this and I'm a huge Natalie Gibb (MightyMouse) fan. She knows the systems and knows what's going to bite my butt. She knows where conventions have not been followed. I trust Natalie because she has earned my trust. I have fun diving with Nat and would probably not enjoy these caves without her. I don't want or need a guide here in Fl, but I won't dive without one in Mexico.

When you dive on a boat, there is a certain amount of trust you impart to the captain and crew. You rely on them to give you an idea of the complexity and you use that information to decide if the dive is within your fun or comfort zone. This is no different for places like Ginnie Springs, Blue Grotto, Paradise Spring and Devil's Den. All of these places claim to be sanitized for OW divers. Are they? They might be fine for most divers, but are they for you? If you are worried about your safety, then you're probably not having fun. Why push it? It doesn't make sense. None at all.

This is why I encourage my AOW students to continue their training by taking a cavern course. You'll gain new skills, new insights and a better discernment of what may or may not be appropriate or fun for YOU. This is especially good if you don't know if you'll like cave diving or not. What's really cool is that everything you learn in a cavern or cave class is useful in OW immediately. The converse is not necessarily true. I just don't see a down side to this at all, and then you're far better prepared to dive the cenotes in Mexico when you go there.

It sure seems to me that these last comments are indicative of a need for a solid course on the topic of the relative dangers of different overhead environments.

Yeah, like a cavern class!

 

[boulderjohn]

Yeah, like a cavern class!

Do you know what you need to take a cavern class?

A cavern.

Colorado has among the highest number of divers per capita in the nation, and they go to resort areas around the world by the thousand every year. I am certified to teach cavern diving to them, but how can I do it with no cavern anywhere close to here?

The dive shop where I work has 5 full time travel agents working on dive travel, planning group trips on behalf of the shop, group trips for other shops across the nation, and individual trips for diving customers. The overwhelming majority of those trips will be to locations with no caverns. Many of them, however, will have opportunities for some level of overhead diving that does not meet the level of a cavern, such as siwm throughs and basic, open wrecks. Do you think people are going to avoid all of those opportunities until they make a dedicated trip to some location where they can get cavern certified? Do you think they will refuse to swim under the anchor chain until they have made that trip to get that certification?