Diver drowns in guided cenote dive

[Jack Hammer]

Back to my last question, is there any credible information as to whether this was diver error or a medical / equopment issue?

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . . How are they to know how much more dangerous the one overhead environment is from another.

That is something I have thought about. How does one quantify the risk? I know intuitively whether one dive is riskier than another dive, but how much riskier is very difficult to quantify. Is the average guided cenote dive 10 times more risky than swimming between openings in a wreck?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Srsly Bob? Are you actually satisfied with the one or two sentences that don't mention "overhead", "cavern" or "cave"? I can't remember a single explicit reference in that regard. Almost all of them use the ultra vague "similar conditions to those you were trained in" or words to that effect. Again, I can't recall a single reference to trust me dives and never a suggestion that your instructor might be the very one to ask you to risk your life needlessly.

Am I really being unreasonable? I don't think so.

Yeah, I think you're being unreasonable ... not in your perspective, but in your hellbent efforts to misrepresent those who are trying to present other sides to the discussion. It's turning into a serious waste of time.

As for your question ... you know better, but the reason you ask is so that you can insinuate that I'm somehow deficient in my training. That's just how you roll. I could go pull out my manual and quote the specifics, but why bother? You'll just take things out of context again so why bother. You win, Pete ... you're a better man than me, and the ultimate authority on scuba training. Happy now?

You recall wrongly and seem to be twisting the point.

... and you've missed mine. But the horse is dead, Pete ... just like this topic.

Glad to have your permission. Yet, you still seem to have an issue that I do so.

I wasn't giving you permission ... nor do I have an issue. And I'm still not sure why you need to be so insulting. Isn't the point of ScubaBoard to discuss? So why is it that every time someone tries to have a discussion that doesn't absolutely agree with your viewpoint, you have to dump on them? It's a pretty piss-poor way to represent yourself, given your position as the owner of the board.

Again, I disagree. I'm sure this will be couched as being dishonest again, but I'm not going to quote everything you wrote.

I didn't ask you to quote everything I wrote ... but a complete sentence would be nice. Any idiot can misrepresent someone by taking a few words out of context to claim someone said something they never said. You did that to me, Pete, and I don't appreciate it. I prefer to not have to think of you as an idiot ... or as someone who would come to this particular forum just to troll. It's inappropriate.

ScubaBoard enjoys a number of readers who aren't even divers as well as many who are new to the sport. I don't write for unreasonable people or those whose minds are already made up. I would never come out of the Pub were that the case. Rather, I write for those seeking information on these accidents and how to avoid them. I haven't read a single solution put forth save my strident "Get the training you need to do the dive". I've only read a number of people telling me how simplistic I'm being, how training will never work as well as how I'm being dishonest. Good job in undermining my rather simple suggestion.

But you haven't provided any information ... all you've done is misrepresent the position of myself and some others who have attempted to inject a different perspective to why accidents such as this one occur. You've offered a "just say no" solution.

So tell me, Pete ... how's that solution working so far? How well has it ever worked?

For those whose minds are not made up: If you want to continue to live and enjoy Scuba, don't do trust me dives. Get the training you need to do any particular dive before you do it. There are any number of people out there who don't really care about your safety: they just want to sell you an adventure. Caveat emptor. You and you alone are really in charge of your safety. You can call a dive before you even get wet. Training will make any dives you do more enjoyable with fewer white knuckles. This is especially true for overhead environments.

So who's ever said differently? Certainly not anyone involved in this thread. But it seems to me that's where you and some others want the conversation to stop. And that's where we diverge, Pete ... because we both know that people read those signs every day and proceed to swim right past them. Wouldn't it behoove us to be talking about why that is? Because until you start to factor in the human nature side of why people do things they know they shouldn't, you will never ... ever ... be able to address how to make them stop doing that.

... or we can just keep telling them the same thing over and over and over ... and hope someday for a different result. There's a definition in there somewhere, Pete ... I bet you know what it's called ...

Bottom line, Pete ... you ain't ever gonna stop people from diving in Cenotes by telling them it's dangerous. Yes, it's important to get that message out there, but it's just one facet of an effective approach to the problem. Other facets are going to include things you don't want to talk about, such as accepting that there's an entire industry out there selling these trips, and a burgeoning population of unqualified divers eager to buy them. And so you are going to have to address that reality ... whether it be through beefing up the training, changing laws or industry standards to require more qualified guides (or simply more of them), smaller groups, more restrictive access, additional day-of-dive training and/or equipment, or any number of other possibilities that should be looked at and considered.

But you're too busy insulting people who want to talk about the fact that the "just say no" approach has already demonstrated that it's ineffective ... and making it sound like we're somehow promoting unsafe diving practices. You know better than that, Pete ... but you're so hellbent on winning an argument that you'd rather insult people than look at the alternatives.

Enjoy your ego, Pete ... I'm done. Nothing constructive can possibly be said in this forum ... you won't let it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Common sense?

Yes, I know it's in pretty short supply.

Common sense doesn't tell you why a cave is more dangerous than a cavern. Common sense does not tell you how dangerous a silt out can be, and how the mere presence of heavy silt can make a huge difference in two otherwise identical sites.

 

[Storker]

Common sense does not tell you how dangerous a silt out can be

Mine does. Particularly if I have a hard overhead above me...

 

[pafindr]

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[boulderjohn]

That is something I have thought about. How does one quantify the risk? I know intuitively whether one dive is riskier than another dive, but how much riskier is very difficult to quantify. Is the average guided cenote dive 10 times more risky than swimming between openings in a wreck?

That is what I tried to do in the course I wrote. I cataloged the different types of overheads and explained the different kinds of risks as you progress from swimming under the anchor chain to entering caves or serious wrecks. I explained the different kinds of training available and how you can get it.

It was very hard to get the course approved because of the prevailing "just say no to all overheads!" attitude. It is exactly the same problem people have trying to have sex education courses that include contraception--the "just say no!" people fight them tooth and nail. Bristol Palin has made hundreds of thousands of dollars preaching the "just say no!' mantra, even though she has gotten pregnant twice using that philosophy.

 

[boulderjohn]

Mine does. Particularly if I have a hard overhead above me...

If "just say no" is working for you, neither common sense nor further education is needed. Apparently you are fine with that. Others might like the education.

 

[mdb]

The perpetually petulant Bob should not dis rail a thread that could be informative and a good learning experience. What happened, what do the divers who were there say? Overall, what can we learn beyond the obvious-"Do not dive beyond your training". There are times, on a once a year vacation, at a very nice dive site, on just a great day, that you want to push the limit. I think boulderjohn has it about right.

 

[Lorenzoid]

That is what I tried to do in the course I wrote. I cataloged the different types of overheads and explained the different kinds of risks as you progress from swimming under the anchor chain to entering caves or serious wrecks. I explained the different kinds of training available and how you can get it.

It was very hard to get the course approved because of the prevailing "just say no to all overheads!" attitude. It is exactly the same problem people have trying to have sex education courses that include contraception--the "just say no!" people fight them tooth and nail. Bristol Palin has made hundreds of thousands of dollars preaching the "just say no!' mantra, even though she has gotten pregnant twice using that philosophy.

I have seen you refer to this course before, and it sounds like a good idea in theory. "Just say no" does not work. Still, it seems to me an impossible exercise to peg each and every dive site somewhere on the spectrum of risk so the OW diver can figure where to draw the line. There are so many variables. Sure, from under the anchor line to a typical Cozumel coral swim-through to serious wreck penetration, it's easy to see where each of these lies relative to the other. But what about finer distinctions? I don't see how an OW diver can decide whether a proposed dive that looks a lot like one he has done before crosses over the line. A few of these cenotes where the guided dives take place seem little different from a series of Cozumel-like swim-throughs, with open water nearby. Most are more cave-like than that. We're told it's good to gradually increase our personal limits, yet we're also told there is a line somewhere not to be crossed without additional training and equipment.