Diver dies not trespassing

[Uncle Pug]

The time we did it wrong I was diving doubles and after hiking them down to the beach saw that the current near the beach was heading South while the current further out in Colvos Passage was moving along at a good clip Northward.

I should have called the dive. But since we had driven so far, hiked down the hill, blah blah blah... I went ahead with it.

The current situation did not get better. We were able to do the dive by using the hand over hand crawl and that worked on the wall where there was something to actually hang onto. On the way back however there was nothing to grab but handfulls of gravel. The current grew so strong that we were separated and there was nothing left to do but surface and swim like mad for the shore... and the long wade back.

I can imagine how someone could end up being surprised by this site especially if they were from out of the area.

 

[FredT]

WOW, you folks are spoiled. We have many Lakes in the area where every inch of the shoreline is private property with the exception of a 10 ft wide boat ramp and room to park a couple cars if you're lucky.

Freshwater not subject to tides is in an entirely different class.

The submerged lands deal is on water subject to tidal action only. While there is some tidal action (swash) in the great lakes, it's too small to be of practical value.

North of Boca Raton there is a collection of seaside mansions known as Highland Beach. The Public Beaches laws in FL require an easement every so often to allow access. Highland Beach Police prohibit stopping to even unload to access this "Public Facility." Back before YOU and I helped pay about $100,000,000 to pump sand up on the "public" beach to stop erosion caused by the landowner's action there was a really nice ledge that ran along the beach pockmarked with holes that held lobster. In order to access them we had to devise a way to get out of a rolling vehicle with dive gear, and a way to get picked up at the end of the dive, all without letting the wheels of the vehicle stop rolling or the diver stop moving down the road and getting tagged with "vagrancy". The beach by law was public, the access to the beach, though mandated as public was made effectively private by the actions of a few individuals. Back in the early 70's I could not even drive through Highland Beach without being stopped by the cops. "Hippy" engineering students were not on the "approved" list to use the road. I eventually got to know all of the town's 4 officers by name, but the never seemed to "remember" me. We were VERY careful to maintain speed limits and all other traffic rules, but no matter how clean it was we always had a "dirty tag" to enable the stop.

For some odd reason I have little sympathy for the landowners of property adjacent to tidal lands. I have even less sympathy for those foolish enough to build on a barrier island, and then expect the rest of us to pay inflated insurance premiums and "beach maintenance" because of their "private property rights."

Barrier Island folks should be in their own little insurance world, and on their own for beach erosion unless they embrace public access.

As for the private property in the case in question, if the landowners put up a seawall, especially if they filled in behind it, they should be encouraged to provide a safe walkway along it.

FT

 

[jagfish]

I'm with Fret T on this one
Tide issue aside as Fred rightly pointed out, you can own all the land around a lake, effectively owning the lake. That's why lakes can be private. By that virtue, the ocean itself is a perpetually public place, except in special circumstances. High tide mark is my expereince of where ownership ends, which is why up and down the East coast, land owners cannot build property walls below the high tide mark. People can walk through these "private beaches" as long as they remain below the high tide mark.

Another poster was quoting a down to the water right of ownership. Never heard of that before.

Sympathies to those involved or affected...

JAG

 

[Otter]

That an action isn't a crime if its done to avoid risk of life? The example I remember from a conversation with an attorney was that a person lost in the wilderness who stumbles upon a cabin can't be charged for breaking and entering if he is doing it to keep from starving / freezing to death (not that being charged would stop anyone).

Seems like there is not only logic, but some sort of legal theory, that says if you miss your mark, its ok to 'tresspass' to get back to safety. Perhaps prior to this unforunate accident, proof of risk was lacking. I guess it isn't anymore.

My condolences to the family.

 

[roakey]

That an action isn't a crime if its done to avoid risk of life?

I think you're referring to the "Doctrine of competing harms" -- It's OK to drive across a double yellow line to avoid an accident.

I'm not a layer and I don't play one on TV.

Roak

 

[caveseeker7]

I don't know that some privacy in your own yard is to much to ask for.

If it costs life ... yes. I'm with Fred here, and federal trumps the state's.
Out of curiosity, Mike, since you seem to think it's okay to press trespassing on a diver in distress for invading the privacy of your backyard:
If someone walks onto your front lawn bleeding trying to get away from someone, would you call the cops because of trespassing (and maybe vandalism if the bleed strong enough)?

C'mon guys, if someone walks across my property to get to the dive site that's one thing, but if they cannot come out of the water and drown ... seems a bit ridiculous.

 

[MikeFerrara]

If it costs life ... yes. I'm with Fred here, and federal trumps the state's.
Out of curiosity, Mike, since you seem to think it's okay to press trespassing on a diver in distress for invading the privacy of your backyard:
If someone walks onto your front lawn bleeding trying to get away from someone, would you call the cops because of trespassing (and maybe vandalism if the bleed strong enough)?

I didn't read that some one was trying to escape death in the water and a property owner blocked access to safety.

I read that a diver fell while walking in the water and drowned.

C'mon guys, if someone walks across my property to get to the dive site that's one thing, but if they cannot come out of the water and drown ... seems a bit ridiculous.

The landowner didn't make the diver dive. He didn't take the air out of the divers bc and he didn't withhold use of the divers reg.

A diver dies walking in the water and you blame the person who lives closest?

 

[fgray1]

The property owners are in a corner on this. If there is no public access to the beach and the property ower allows you to go through and someone die or gets hurt they have a law suit on there hands.
It's up to the diver to figure the risk involved in getting to and from where he wants to dive. He has to make the choices and use common sense and then his training. If in a place where you know you can end back in rough water keep your gear on and BCD inflated. If necessary Keep your reg in your mouth.
I know when I do a boat dive in and when it ends and you climb back in your were trained to keep the reg in your mouth till your safely back on the boat. I know thw same holds true for doing a beach dives. Following simple protocal and using common sense can save your life.
I feel bad that another diver has drown but I don't beleive it's the land owners fault. Once again a diver was lost where using his training most likely would have saved his life.
Far to often we think it won't happen to us.
Sad! Very Sad for his family. :frown:

Fred

 

[MikeFerrara]

The property owners are in a corner on this. If there is no public access to the beach and the property ower allows you to go through and someone die or gets hurt they have a law suit on there hands.
It's up to the diver to figure the risk involved in getting to and from where he wants to dive. He has to make the choices and use common sense and then his training. If in a place where you know you can end back in rough water keep your gear on and BCD inflated. If necessary Keep your reg in your mouth.
I know when I do a boat dive in and when it ends and you climb back in your were trained to keep the reg in your mouth till your safely back on the boat. I know thw same holds true for doing a beach dives. Following simple protocal and using common sense can save your life.
I feel bad that another diver has drown but I don't beleive it's the land owners fault. Once again a diver was lost where using his training most likely would have saved his life.
Far to often we think it won't happen to us.
Sad! Very Sad for his family. :frown:

Fred

I agree. People can argue beach access all they want but this diver drowned while walking in shallow water while in possession and probably wearing full scuba gear.

Sounds to me like a reg in the mouth and maybe a little air in the bc was the real answer.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sorry, but you all have missed the salient point of this accident altogether ... which is that this couple had no business being on this site at the time of the accident.

They chose a bad day to dive this site, then compounded the problem by choosing a time when the current would be pulling them away from the entry point at the end of the dive.

In other words, they put themselves in a bad situation by not properly researching their choice of site before planning their dive.

That goes against everything we, as divers, are responsible for.

The property owners didn't put these divers in this position ... the divers did.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)