Diver Death in Cayman

[Web Monkey]

Far less effort to get deep than is being assumed. I think some clarification about the dive site is in order. I believe that when the OP says it was not a "wall" she means that it was not the classic sheer vertical cliff face that we see in many pictures. My understanding of the dives site is that it is a fairly steep face of 30 to 45 degrees and that when the OP describes there being a "hard bottom" at 140, she is not describing a flat, level area, but rather the depth below the divers at which the steeply sloping bottom would have been intersected by a vertical line from the diver to that bottom.

This all depends specifically on the topography of the site. Originally, I was under the impression it was a nearly vertical wall that dropped to about 340', later we were told that there was a bottom at 140'.

That makes a big difference in my book, since the first one is relatively unforgiving, while the second one requires effort in order to really screw up. Or as you said it could be something in the middle.

I'm guessing that the dive op does the same wall often. Does anybody know where they actually go and what it actually looks like?

FWIW, this thread sounds a lot like one of my Philosophy of Law classes that started out with a guy falling down an elevator shaft and dying, where the professor then gradually changed the conditions to make "who is at fault" less clear and had us work through it. I'd be willing to bet there are lawyers in here trolling for free information.

Terry

 

[mrlipis]

No you called her a liar.

 

[letterboy]

No you called her a liar.

no where in my post did I say the word liar.

I did say that she is withholding information and seemingly dangling it over our heads.

 

[letterboy]

~SNIP~ So continue to rack your brains into mush and I will sit back and just laugh. Because I know all the facts and you don't.~SNIP~

It is comments like this that draw this conclusion for me

 

[JCAT]

How the victim got back to the surface is a real question. I can't buy the coroner's mumbo-jumbo concerning increased buoyancy due to draining the tank, that only accounts for about 4 lbs ... far less than the suit compression at depth. I can see no alternative but that the victim inflated his BC at the last moment or somehow ditched some weight.

So your stating that you have seen the coroner's report? Or is this information that you gained elsewhere?

simple question.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

wonder if fosterboxermom was even there. . . seems to be giving out tid bits of information but never really giving us anything to help figure this out. . .

maybe she is a lawyer. . .

I think this is uncalled for - based on the first part of this thread, I'm thinking the OP has been through a very stressful situation and posts like this do nothing to help us learn from this tragedy. Its up to you - but I would like to see it removed.

 

[Sinbad the Diver]

I'm confused by something in this whole thread.

I've been certified just over a year, and have 27 logged dives. However, after my first 4 open water dives I understood that my safety was my and only my responsibility. I have been on dive trips on boats and have taken advanced classes. In every one of these scenarios my instructors and my buddies were diferentiated. Just to make sure we were clear, in each of my advanced classes the instructor reminded us that we are certified divers and that as such we were responsible for our safety and should always remember that the instructor was there to teach the class and if he became aware of a problem would obviously assist, but our buddy teams were our first line of assistance. If the Capt/DM or whatever role he was playing in this situation did not assign buddies, I think common rule #1 comes into play..... if it's not safe, don't dive. If the DM didn't assign me a buddy I'd either ask him to or I'd take it upon my self to talk to the other divers and not get in the water until that was clear. The OP mentioned the DM not checking the diver's air, I personaly consider that my responsibility to myself and to my buddy.

Also, I am a little confused, the OP referenced the victim only had 2 checkout dives previously. I thought 4 was the normal standard (I'm SDI certified, is PADI different?).

Someone, I believe it was JimLap wrote a fantastic post in the New Divers section that I think is very relevant here. In a nutshell, safety begins and ends with you the diver. IMO, as a community, we as divers should be ensuring that all divers are aware of that, because once you begin to abdicate responsibility for safety to others, things like this happen.

It seems like a lot of things were missing and the DM and the Operator did a less than stellar job based on what has been posted here. However, I have a lot issue with the idea that the DM is responsible for this death, contributory (is that a word?), seems like it, but the vicitim and the others involved who left their lives and safety in the hands of someone else have some involvement as well.

I do appologize if this post comes off a little cold, but I have a real issue with the idea that a person can make someone else responsible for them and shut down their brain, most noteably in an activity where the first thing I was told in the first class I took was "diving is a dangerous activity and if you make a mistake or something fails you can die". Each person in the class had to verbaly state that we understood that.

 

[MdScubaAl]

Cayman Island has a high number of diving deaths and has been one of the hot spots to dive. But does anyone know that the dive shops operate against Port Authority and Cayman Laws stating that there should be two people on all dive boats? They say that it would make Dive Shops "Unprofitable"!! So they would rather compromise the safety of divers than loose money.

My friend died last week due to a DM's error. I will do whatever I have to to let everyone know that Cayman is unsafe to dive!!

I'm truly sorry for the loss of your friend.
However, it really sounds like you're parrotting CDN's anti-Cayman rhetoric! I speak as a diver with about 7 years' and 300+ dives experience. Probably 60 of those dives were in Grand Cayman with Sunset House, Red Sail, and man with Ocean Frontiers. All of those are "major" dive operations and not once did I ever run into conditions as you've later described them.

I have heard of - but never used - Divers Down so I can't comment on their abilities or personnel. However, to "tar and feather" all Cayman dive ops for what may - or my not - be negligent behavior on the part of one is not serving any useful purpose.

Wall dives in Grand Cayman are generally considered deep dives and are really not suitable for a new diver - but ultimately it's the diver's responsibility to "call the dive" if he/she feels it's not suitable for whatever reason.

Also, many of the "scuba diving deaths" should really be called "deaths while scuba diving" and many have been shown to be related to pre-existing medical conditions, or even unexpected medical conditions.

Please - do mourn your friend - but don't try to cast a shadow on an entire country's diver operations unless you really have evidence showing that ALL of them are unsafe.

 

[Cave Diver]

Far less effort to get deep than is being assumed. I think some clarification about the dive site is in order. I believe that when the OP says it was not a "wall" she means that it was not the classic sheer vertical cliff face that we see in many pictures. My understanding of the dives site is that it is a fairly steep face of 30 to 45 degrees and that when the OP describes there being a "hard bottom" at 140, she is not describing a flat, level area, but rather the depth below the divers at which the steeply sloping bottom would have been intersected by a vertical line from the diver to that bottom.

Here is a link that shows a Google Earth view of the area the diver was found by the fishing boat in. It's called Dolphin Point: http://travelingluck.com/North+Amer...eneral)/_3580685_Dolphin+Point.html#local_map

I have not dove this particular site, but I have dove many of the other sites in close proximity.

Note that the word "site" is usually designated by some sort of a bouy or marker at a specific location. Keeping that in mind someone could dive off the area called Dolphin point without actually being at the "dive site" Dolphin point.

When you zoom in and view the map of this area, the light green area is normally a hard coral bottom, covered with thin layer of sediment and plants. IME, this area typically ranges from 10-70' and may be punctuated with shoals or coral heads.

The dark line between the lighter blue area and the greenish area is where the mini wall starts. The mini wall starts as shallow as 40' in places and drops off to about a max depth of about 120' although 70-90' is probably about average.

The light blue area in between the dark blue/black and the greenish area is typically sand flats. The sand flat can be a narrow strip, or a hundred+ yards wide, depending on the specific area. The flats can also contain coral heads and shoals.

The dark blue area is the main wall. The top of the wall typically starts around ~120' and is usually pretty dramatic. It does have a slight slope to it for the first 50-100' before becoming more vertical.

I'm not familair with the particular site that this group was at, so I can't comment on the accuracy of a hard bottom at 140'. In my experience, it would be unusual to find the bottom that deep without being close to the actual wall itself. If they were not on the wall, then its is likely that the diver would have to cross a fairly large sand flat before hitting the main wall and being able to go deeper.

If I can find depth charts for this specific area, I'll add them later.

 

[mrlipis]

Also, I am a little confused, the OP referenced the victim only had 2 checkout dives previously. I thought 4 was the normal standard (I'm SDI certified, is PADI different?).

To clarify, the diver was certified in the U.S. and when he arrived in Cayman the shop did 2 checkout dives with him, so this was his 3rd ocean dive and was allowed to attempt a 100 ft dive with virtually no experience. That's the problem. The DM should have said no. They knew exactly what his experience level was.