Diver Death in Cayman

[mrlipis]

Please - do mourn your friend - but don't try to cast a shadow on an entire country's diver operations unless you really have evidence showing that ALL of them are unsafe.

I don't know if this is true or not but it was posted earlier that it is common practice to leave a boat unattended. If so, then I would concur with the OP. If you have dived with an operation like this, I would re-think it. Leaving a dive boat unattended is an accident waiting to happen.
Check out the USCG regulations. Not only can it not be left unattended, it needs to be attended with a qualified skipper or first mate.

 

[fosterboxermom]

wonder if fosterboxermom was even there. . . seems to be giving out tid bits of information but never really giving us anything to help figure this out. . .

maybe she is a lawyer. . .

Speculate all you want like I said. I am trying to give information that is asked. If I can answer it and I have the facts I will give them to you and again read back to my post where I stated that I don't have full permission to give out information such as autopsy, or certain things Pam wants kept private. I can't help that. I have to respect her privacy. If you don't want my information then I simply won't give it. I am trying to help all of you understand what happened since you want to know. And I believe that you do since there are over 700 posts. To be honest with you I wish this thread would go away and I pray to God I wish I had never started it. It was a major mistake on my part and I do apologize for that and to Pam and Brendan's family because they have caught wind of it and it has hurt them deeply to hear some of the things said about Brendan and me. But since this horrible thread is here I am at least trying to make things right by getting the facts straight and not discredit Brendan's name. I am not saying that Brendan did not play a part in his death, I don't know.

 

[InTheDrink]

Some clever person should be able to ascertain the characteristics of this thread and why it runs and runs and repeats and repeats.

Does it point to systemic failure? Certainly there appears to be enough confusion to indicate a system failure somewhere.

Is it questions that have no answer?

Is it just a highly emotive topic?

Whilst a lot of this thread has been noise (myself included) it would be interesting to understand why it's now running at nearly 80 pages. Something in here perhaps - but is there anyone that can tease the real lessons out? I certainly can't.

Aside: I'd also like to respond to an earlier comment about me being all about this nancy pancy everyone else's fault but mine, who can I sue. I am vehemently anti this kind of culture. But the comparison in any event is fallacious. A very new diver (or in fact insert any activity you like here) is not fully responsible for his actions. You cannot be responsible for your actions if you are in effect ignorant of your actions or their ramifications. In this early, just left the nest phase, we all rely on the guidance of the more experienced. Once a diver has some reasonable experience under his belt, responsibility for his decisions rests full square on his shoulders - as he knows what he is getting himself into.

 

[letterboy]

I think this is uncalled for - based on the first part of this thread, I'm thinking the OP has been through a very stressful situation and posts like this do nothing to help us learn from this tragedy. Its up to you - but I would like to see it removed.

I am not and will not read 700+ posts, I am basing my opinion on what I have gotten from the last 150 or so in this thread. I do not see it as uncalled for, a bit harsh, maybe, but not uncalled for.

So far I have seen her give information out, good for her, but she is intentionally for lack of a better word (dangling information in front of our noses) information that would tell US how the poor soul met his demise. You know things like, "I have his computer profile but I you can't see it" or "Because I know all the facts and you don't." It is saying things like this that get people, myself included, a little confused as to your motives. I understand trying to figure out what happened, but to me it smells a bit more like someone out looking for a reason that it wasn't the poor kids fault in some places.

call me an arse, call what you like.

I know what it is like to watch someone die, and you have no way to control it.

 

[fosterboxermom]

wonder if fosterboxermom was even there. . . seems to be giving out tid bits of information but never really giving us anything to help figure this out. . .

maybe she is a lawyer. . .

I'm truly sorry for the loss of your friend.
However, it really sounds like you're parrotting CDN's anti-Cayman rhetoric! I speak as a diver with about 7 years' and 300+ dives experience. Probably 60 of those dives were in Grand Cayman with Sunset House, Red Sail, and man with Ocean Frontiers. All of those are "major" dive operations and not once did I ever run into conditions as you've later described them.

I have heard of - but never used - Divers Down so I can't comment on their abilities or personnel. However, to "tar and feather" all Cayman dive ops for what may - or my not - be negligent behavior on the part of one is not serving any useful purpose.

Wall dives in Grand Cayman are generally considered deep dives and are really not suitable for a new diver - but ultimately it's the diver's responsibility to "call the dive" if he/she feels it's not suitable for whatever reason.

Also, many of the "scuba diving deaths" should really be called "deaths while scuba diving" and many have been shown to be related to pre-existing medical conditions, or even unexpected medical conditions.

Please - do mourn your friend - but don't try to cast a shadow on an entire country's diver operations unless you really have evidence showing that ALL of them are unsafe.

Do you realize that the man that owns Ocean Frontiers is the very same man that is ignoring the Cayman Law and refuses to obey it and is in charge of the CITA Watersports Committee for safety for Diver's? And I will let people I know that a county is ignoring laws if that is the case because they are. We went to the Port Authority and reported DD and that is what we should have done as responsible citizens and divers. We didn't know they were ignoring a law of their country for god's sake when we boarded that boat. What if if was your loved one that went missing? We signed waivers stating that we would not hold the dive op responsible for us, however we assumed they were operating safely and doing their part as well so to me when we agreed to their rules that was under the assumption that they were being honest to us. They weren't so in my eyes, our waiver is null and void!

 

[fosterboxermom]

Here is a link that shows a Google Earth view of the area the diver was found by the fishing boat in. It's called Dolphin Point: Dolphin Point / Dolphin Point, Cayman Islands (general), Cayman Islands, North America

I have not dove this particular site, but I have dove many of the other sites in close proximity.

Note that the word "site" is usually designated by some sort of a bouy or marker at a specific location. Keeping that in mind someone could dive off the area called Dolphin point without actually being at the "dive site" Dolphin point.

When you zoom in and view the map of this area, the light green area is normally a hard coral bottom, covered with thin layer of sediment and plants. IME, this area typically ranges from 10-70' and may be punctuated with shoals or coral heads.

The dark line between the lighter blue area and the greenish area is where the mini wall starts. The mini wall starts as shallow as 40' in places and drops off to about a max depth of about 120' although 70-90' is probably about average.

The light blue area in between the dark blue/black and the greenish area is typically sand flats. The sand flat can be a narrow strip, or a hundred+ yards wide, depending on the specific area. The flats can also contain coral heads and shoals.

The dark blue area is the main wall. The top of the wall typically starts around ~120' and is usually pretty dramatic. It does have a slight slope to it for the first 50-100' before becoming more vertical.

I'm not familair with the particular site that this group was at, so I can't comment on the accuracy of a hard bottom at 140'. In my experience, it would be unusual to find the bottom that deep without being close to the actual wall itself. If they were not on the wall, then its is likely that the diver would have to cross a fairly large sand flat before hitting the main wall and being able to go deeper.

If I can find depth charts for this specific area, I'll add them later.

That is where we docked at and where the ambulances me us. That is not where we were diving. We were diving at a place called "Round Rock". I don't know where it is in comparison to Dolphin Point but it is a totally different place. And having dived there once before you could be in a shallow dive and 5 minutes later be at a vertical wall with a drop off to the abyss.

 

[vondo]

Speculate all you want like I said. I am trying to give information that is asked. If I can answer it and I have the facts I will give them to you and again read back to my post where I stated that I don't have full permission to give out information such as autopsy, or certain things Pam wants kept private. I can't help that. I have to respect her privacy. If you don't want my information then I simply won't give it. I am trying to help all of you understand what happened since you want to know. And I believe that you do since there are over 700 posts. To be honest with you I wish this thread would go away and I pray to God I wish I had never started it. It was a major mistake on my part and I do apologize for that and to Pam and Brendan's family because they have caught wind of it and it has hurt them deeply to hear some of the things said about Brendan and me. But since this horrible thread is here I am at least trying to make things right by getting the facts straight and not discredit Brendan's name. I am not saying that Brendan did not play a part in his death, I don't know.

I want to say thank you for coming back here to give more information. I was also want to thank you for being much more coherent in these later posts. I understand you were incredibly upset previously but it's nice to see someone posting coherently. Some people NEVER seem to learn how to do that.

Within the limits imposed on you, you've answered most of the open factual questions that you could. Questions that arose from the beginning of the thread.

I have one remaining. There is a lot of confusion here on "check out dives." Can you tell us if the couple was fully certified having done their 4 OW check out dives in Colorado or in GC? In any case, are you perhaps meaning to say "two refresher dives" before the fatal dive rather than "checkout."

My definitions:
checkout = the 4 dives done with an instructor prior to being certified
refresher = dives done with an instructor to gain experience, get back into diving after an absence, etc.

Thanks and please keep posting if you can.

 

[vondo]

I am not and will not read 700+ posts, I am basing my opinion on what I have gotten from the last 150 or so in this thread. I do not see it as uncalled for, a bit harsh, maybe, but not uncalled for.

It was both.

So far I have seen her give information out, good for her, but she is intentionally for lack of a better word (dangling information in front of our noses) information that would tell US how the poor soul met his demise. You know things like, "I have his computer profile but I you can't see it"

totally reasonable if you'd read the thread (which many of us have)

or "Because I know all the facts and you don't."

Less reasonable, but I'm willing to overlook it considering that a few people are or have given her a really hard time. And she watched someone die.

It is saying things like this that get people, myself included, a little confused as to your motives. I understand trying to figure out what happened, but to me it smells a bit more like someone out looking for a reason that it wasn't the poor kids fault in some places.

call me an arse, call what you like.

You said it, not me.

 

[JDMerk]

To be honest with you I wish this thread would go away and I pray to God I wish I had never started it. It was a major mistake on my part and I do apologize for that and to Pam and Brendan's family because they have caught wind of it and it has hurt them deeply to hear some of the things said about Brendan and me.

You know..there is a way you can make this thread go away. Stop posting to it. You are the one keeping this thread going by continually posting replies. If you stopped posting now, not even replying to me to tell me whatever...I guarantee you that everyone else would tire of it and this thread would be pushed to the second or third page in a day or two. Done, Finished, Gone to the depths from whence it came.
There is nothing productive to be had here. This is just mucking up the situation more and more. Just let it go. (the thread that is)

 

[InTheDrink]

You know..there is a way you can make this thread go away. Stop posting to it. You are the one keeping this thread going by continually posting replies. If you stopped posting now, not even replying to me to tell me whatever...I guarantee you that everyone else would tire of it and this thread would be pushed to the second or third page in a day or two. Done, Finished, Gone to the depths from whence it came.
There is nothing productive to be had here. This is just mucking up the situation more and more. Just let it go. (the thread that is)

No, the thread kept going while she took a break. If you don't like the thread no-one's forcing you to read it, or make pointless non-contributions like this.

And a point of English - you can have 'Gone to the depths from where it came' or 'Gone to the depths whence it came' but not 'Gone to the depths from whence it came'. Just to be niggly.