Diver Death in Cayman

[Riger]

Fosterboxermom,

1. Do you know if the other 6 divers were paired up as buddies?
2. Do you recall if buddy checks were done pre-dive?

Thankyou for your participation in the thread.

Best Regards
Richard

 

[ScubaSteve]

Thank you for this addition. So, for the deceased to hit 300+ feet, they would likely have had to put a fair bit of effort into it (i.e. swimming the sloping bottom and not just dropping - not referencing physical exertion here)) and had plenty of time to correct their actions rather than continue on that path. That leads me in a different direction of speculative thinking.

Thank you for the addition.

I have decided to add some facts to this thread. I was an eye witness and these are facts of what I witnessed and I have discussed them with my husband to be sure I was being factual.

Second, I am only one person answering questions. PLEASE, don't send several questions or paragraphs for me to answer, because there are many of you doing the same thing. I can't answer all of you.

Third, PLEASE don't ask me anything about the autopsy, death or anything that is not available to the public. If you do I will tell you that it is not available to the public yet and Pam had asked me not to give that information out. I have to respect her wishes. Thank you.

OK about the "Wall"

The "Wall" as everyone is calling it and I might have called it a "Wall" as well in my previous posts, I don't know and I am not going back 500 and something posts to see, was not a "Wall" it was a sloping bottom that kept sloping in depth down and down. So it was not like a "Wall" you would descend to and dive horizontally and see an abyss if you looked down like I would call a "Wall". There was a solid bottom from where I was looking at all times, mostly sandy with reef out crops that you could swim through. Pam and I were above them at 60ft. The bottom was about 140ft. were we were diving. The other divers, meaning the DM, my husband, a couple from San Diego, Brendan and the Minor.

 

[fosterboxermom]

Fosterboxermom,

1. Do you know if the other 6 divers were paired up as buddies?
2. Do you recall if buddy checks were done pre-dive?

Thankyou for your participation in the thread.

Best Regards
Richard

Riger,

The only people that were buddied up were Pam and I because we did that ourselves. So no the other 6 divers were NOT buddied up they went as a group.

There were no buddy checks except Pam and I did ours.

 

[fosterboxermom]

Thank you for this addition. So, for the deceased to hit 300+ feet, they would likely have had to put a fair bit of effort into it (i.e. swimming the sloping bottom and not just dropping - not referencing physical exertion here)) and had plenty of time to correct their actions rather than continue on that path. That leads me in a different direction of speculative thinking.

Thank you for the addition.

You are welcome.

 

[Riger]

Riger,

The only people that were buddied up were Pam and I because we did that ourselves. So no the other 6 divers were NOT buddied up they went as a group.

There were no buddy checks except Pam and I did ours.

Thanks for that, that is interesting, I would expect the representative of the operator (DM/DG) to at least have made sure that everyone had a buddy, especially considering the novice and the teenager.

If I may ask, do you know what the level of experience was of the other couple and, how many dives does your hubby have? I am trying to establish the overall experience of the group.

Thanks again.

Best Regards
Richard

 

[fosterboxermom]

As far as weight goes Brendan was properly weighted. He weighed 200lbs and he had 16lbs of weight. Maybe a pound or two over but nothing that dramatic.

 

[Dtaine]

He somehow went to 346ft. according to his dive computer.

..... There was a solid bottom from where I was looking at all times, mostly sandy with reef out crops that you could swim through. Pam and I were above them at 60ft. The bottom was about 140ft. were we were diving. The other divers, meaning the DM, my husband, a couple from San Diego, Brendan and the Minor.

So how far would one have to swim from where you were to where bottom that was 346+ feet? I'm just curious, thank you for giving your account.

That depends on who you brought along. If you take someone brand new to a range, I would expect that you would do your best to keep him from pointing the business end in bad directions. If you took a cop to a gun range, I'd figure he knows what to do and is on his own.

I still love the assertion that it could be (at least partially) my fault. Thank you.

I'm not PADI certified, and could be wrong, but as far as I know, current PADI OW training does not require demonstrating buoyancy control in an environment without a visible bottom (not really sure if they actually require any at all). There's no reason to believe that the guy had the capacity to maintain depth on a wall.

hmmm, I'm not sure on what's required to be honest.

If the OP had even a handful of dives and had demonstrated some sort of buoyancy control and judgement, I'd say "The DM was a moron, but the guy did it to himself.", and call it a day. That isn't the case here.

Well, I guess we can't know, unfortunately.

A reasonable DM who is handed an unknown 2-dive diver would be under the boat verifying/practicing skills (including hovering) and looking at cool fish for the first dive before going anywhere dangerous. The experienced divers would be told "Remember where the boat is and come back before you run out of air."

Terry

I agree, but I still think the diver has to accept the majority of the blame, and the divemaster to a lesser extent. Not the other way around.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I was certain I saw somebody claim earlier in the thread that the deceased diver and the DM were "buddied" up together. It would be good if they could chime in here and fill in what they meant by "buddied up" if there were no buddies assigned (or checks done). Having never dove in Cayman, I have to ask if this is normal (I mean to not pair people up). I have heard of that happening here in North America but most places I have gone, they at least make sure somebody is with someone else. Just curious.

 

[rsldonk]

I've been following this for a while and haven't put in anything yet.

I am not the most experienced here, and won't claim to be but it seems that arguing over who is more responsible is pretty pointless. Diving, like about anything, and one's safety while diving is ultimately one's sole responsibility. For example, I'm in grad school and while I have advisors who are there to help me, they are a lot less concerned about what happens to me than I am. If I want to graduate, it's really up to me to make sure that I utilize the help available but also that I use my own judgment to ensure I get what suits my needs. Nobody knows what I need more than I do.

While a DM or guide can make a difference between a good dive and a bad one, what really needs to be discussed is that it ultimately was the individual's choice to follow the DM or not. From what it sounds like, others did not follow and didn't experience problems. I don't really care about legal issues and who's right or not because ultimately, if you croak, it really doesn't matter.

If the diver was trained properly, there was little chance he missed the parts that emphasize things like plan your dive and dive your plan, don't exceed your training, if you aren't comfortable, don't dive. The choice to go to a depth that was deeper than he was trained for was his, the DM didn't stick extra weight on him, he didn't drag him down to that depth, the diver got there on his own power. He was not forced into anything. While the DM does have responsibility to plan a dive that suits everyone in the group, and that ultimately didn't happen here, there was nobody to blame but the individual for following that DM. I don't know this individual DM, but I think it would be safe to assume (and who knows from what has been discussed so far by the OP) that if nobody followed him, he would pretty quickly figure out that he needed to change things. I have been on boats where plans have changed because of the needs of the group. How that didn't happen in this case is what I don't understand. If the DM is working for tips, he's generally going to want to do a dive that will maximize enjoyment so he gets more money. Also, even though it was obvious to others on the boat this plan was a bad idea before the dive, everyone still jumped in the water. If nobody jumped in and this guy was working for tips, my guess is that the plan would have changed very quickly.

Otherwise, there are certainly lessons to be learned here for all levels. For the DMs and instructors, don't plan a dive for newbies that exceeds their capabilities. For the newbies, you are personally responsible for your own safety. We can argue over who's most responsible all we want, but ultimately that's really for the court to decide.

 

[fosterboxermom]

Thanks for that, that is interesting, I would expect the representative of the operator (DM/DG) to at least have made sure that everyone had a buddy, especially considering the novice and the teenager.

If I may ask, do you know what the level of experience was of the other couple and, how many dives does your hubby have? I am trying to establish the overall experience of the group.

Thanks again.

Best Regards
Richard

My husband has the same experience as I have over 200 dives, however, he does get a little more anxious than I do sometimes ( I am completely comfortable in any condition where he is not) I think that is because I am a mouth breather and he is a nose breather. During the dive he came up to about 80 ft because he was feeling a little uncomfortable at 100 ft and having a hard time breathing, he just wanted to get control of his breathing which he did and then he descended back down to the 100 ft with the rest of the group and this was during the time the DM was asking me "where is your buddy"?

The couple from San Diego, were mixed, the husband had more experience than his wife, however, I did a dive with them previous and she did incredibly well. The husband had been diving for about 4 or 5 years and quite a bit in San Diego. The wife only about a year or so in San Diego but like I said did very well with everything I noted.