Hi, K-Girl! I’m doing well. I’ll be in your old diving stomping grounds of Florida soon enough. Heading to Seattle after one more week of school madness, and then we are off to sunny Florida to meet up with my sis coming in from Europe. Then its Key Largo and water fun for all! It is also good to see you here as well. You’ve posted some great links by the way. Always appreciated.
Very interesting thought, but I would think it would depend on the terrain in the area, considering that most divers dive just a few feet off the bottom during most of the dive. They were diving a wreck, which should mean that the diver would not be spending the entire dive just off the bottom. She was found out in open water in the sand. I think it would also matter how well the computer distinguishes 80 feet from 82 feet.
Exactly! A lot depends on the computer make and model and the terrain of the day. If there could be variations shown before she was brought to the surface, this could be useful for the defense, but it could also help the prosecution’s timeline more independently than the use of speculative numbers. I, of course, am as in the dark about this as everyone else is.
I agree with this in many ways. However, If Swain had "tired" Thwaites could have taken over and they could have traded back and forth. It may be true that CPR doesn't save most people, but if it never worked, we wouldn't be trained on it. I think Thwaites' testimony regarding his personal reaction to the situation is significant as basically Swain ended not only his effort pretty quickly, but anyone else's attempts and stopped the radio call that was already in progress in favor of a cell phone call. This truly is significant when it comes to the fact that this is supposed to be someone he loves. My perception is that Thwaites was Swain's friend and Swain was behaving in a way that caused Thwaites to say that he was shocked. It is possible that Thwaites has observed Swain react in emergency situations before (since they are both experienced divers), and Swain's behavior may have been different enough for Thwaites to feel shock at Swain's behavior.
Firstly, I totally agree with everything you say about continuing CPR for any victim, which of course includes one you are close to. I hope my exercise in waxing the cyber-detective doesn’t lean toward suggesting that CPR is a fruitless endeavor. In my work and play I think it is hugely important to know how to try and save someone, if for no other reason than to combat that helpless feeling one gets in tragic situations. I, like many Americans and others, know this horrible feeling from watching helplessly on September 11, 2001. I remain profoundly affected by that horrible day and the helplessness that consumed me as I watched all those people die. For what it is worth, I was one of the teachers at our school to raise hell last year when it was brought to light that CPR courses for the faculty were “too expensive”. I definitely get where you are coming from.
All of your points are valid. The part that is sticky for me in this case, I suppose, is that Thwaites decided after the fact to call this behavior odd, but when he was in the moment he complied with Swain’s verbal request to stop CPR. If he is a rescue diver, he is also trained to make assessments on his own, both regarding the continuation of CPR and in stressing the need to make a faster call for help to the best available EMT. He was the one who found her as well making him the “primary” rescuer in this scenario. She was also his friend as well as Swain’s wife, so why does he get the pass in this case and Swain gets to be the bad guy? I still think this is unfair and prejudicial. Given that he could have continued to do CPR, why didn’t he? Because Swain said so? This is a little bit too convenient for my taste. Could the strangeness about the incident be a reflection of his own guilt at having been so easily convinced?
Here is where I toss in a bit more conjecture. Please note that I am admitting this from the start.
In looking at Swain in the photos I’ve seen, he doesn’t strike me as a strong man physically. No insult intended here. Given his background of abuse which has led to his stoicism when it comes to showing emotional weakness, could it be that he was tired and emotionally spent and thus exhausted quickly doing CPR? If so, is it possible that he on some psychological level “had to” believe she was dead instead of owning up to his weakness in the moment? If so, then his words could be the sign of a man who was not “man enough” on the day. Again, not allowing his psychologist to testify to his condition after the incident could be relevant in this, not only for the defense, but also the prosecution. Going back to an excellent point made earlier, the prosecution getting what they wanted could have actually hurt them as well.
Back to my main point:
Why even ask Swain if he wants the call made when you arrive at the scene? Just make the bloody call! I admit that my personal experiences in emergency diving situations extends only to the point that I have been trained myself and have assisted in minor incidents; however, I have been in a few sticky situations on land were I needed to call for help. I never asked permission. In more than one case when I made the call for help, I found out from the EMT on the other end that calls had already been made to them prior to my attempt. On one occasion during a house fire I witnessed in California, I called 911 even though someone else at the scene told me that they had already been called. Why take chances? There is noting wrong redundancy, I’d say.
In the aftermath of a car accident I narrowly missed myself, where five people died, I decided to leave the scene to call for help because my truck was quite literally the last vehicle to get through before the accident. I wanted to stay and help but decided that it was better for me to leave the scene with injured and dying people in order to drive somewhere to call for help (think pre cell phones). I felt really guilty about this afterwards and actually had a hard time sleeping after that day. I was defensive about my decision when cornered, particularly in the deposition. I felt for the longest time that I had failed to make the right call. When I look at it now, I don’t know why I thought that leaving was somehow wrong, like I was giving up. Still, I did feel that for a long time and conjured up defensive strategies to cope with this guilt when I talked about the incident. Some of the details came back to me years later, like the music that was playing when it all happened. Really weird how it just hit me one day while listening to the radio. Oops, I’m digressing again.
It seems odd that the mere suggestion that she was dead was also enough to get Thwaites to stop doing CPR as well. As far I as understand things, the account he is giving is that Swain only said these things. He never forced anyone to stop anything, which is the language some people in this thread are using inaccurately I’d say.. If these witnesses are astute enough to recount their concern after the fact, why not merely follow those instincts in the moment? It is a little bit revisionist historian in my opinion to cite odd behavior that you are ultimately complicit in.
So this becomes an issue of whether or not Swain really did “stop” these attempts or merely just suggest that she was gone and then that a different course be taken using somewhat ambiguous language. Why is his suggestion to stop CPR and his desire to use a cell phone any more damning to his integrity than it is for those who complied and are now testifying to this fact?
Perhaps your conclusions are different to mine. And I am cool with that by the way
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I envision it to be more difficult for someone to fend-off an attack underwater than to be the attacker. There is nothing for the victim to grab onto, nothing, but the bottom to find leverage. The attacker would easily have the upperhand coming from behind. Yes, it is difficult to rescue, but what you try to accomplish for a rescue is different from an attack. It is easy to get behind a diver and grab the tank. Even quicker and easier to get the victim off-guard and less able to fight back, grab the mask and jerk it off. Best to begin the approach from behind so the victim is caught completely by surprise. Since you are already behind the victim, you can now easily grab the tank and start turning off the air as they struggle to recover from the missing mask and the shock that they are under attack. You might even be able to confuse them long enough to make them believe that you are trying to help them as you begin to turn off the air. The victim will probably start kicking wildly, with as much force as they can muster, instinctively going for leverage either against the bottom or against the attacker, twisting at the same time to get the attacker out from behind. But all the leverage and control lies with the attacker, as he has a good hold on the tank valve, the victim cannot see, has to remember how to breathe without a mask, just to survive the few minutes that are left.
Again, all of these are excellent points. The burning questions remain, however why/how put it in the sand as it was found? If the advantage is as you say, removing a hand (or hands) to do this is not advantageous as I see it. If the fin falls off as a result of the struggle, the location of it stuck in the sand is just as improbable for the prosecution as it is for the defense giving the tests that were run (well the ones I’ve read about anyway). This remains problematic for all these reasons.
Further:
How does the fin come off? No one takes it off, it is probably a slip-on bootie fin that slips off much more easily that a fin designed with a strap to go over a boot. It is dug into the sand and comes off during the attack as the victim is attempting to use what little leverage that is available - the bottom.
Please correct me if I am wrong. Is it true that Thwaites found the fin originally? I recall this from one linked article earlier on. If he found the fin and thought nothing of it until he saw Tyre’s body in the water and then he let it go in order to help her, he was the last person to touch the fin. He says in that article that he dropped the fin immediately and went to Tyre to help her.
Could he have placed the fin tip down from the position he was carrying it. As it stands (assuming his testimony is accurate and my memory as well), he admits to being the last person to have possession of the fin on the day. Maybe I have this wrong, as another diver also claims to have found the fin a day later, which isn’t necessarily inconsistent with what I recall from Thwaites. Is it possible that both accounts are true, that Thwaites did find the fin initially, and then the second diver recovered it after he “dropped” it? I’d appreciate the skinny on this.
Finally, I have no issues with your hypothesis about the fin being stuck in the sand during the attack if it was tested and shown to be plausible. Please correct me again if I am wrong, but wasn’t there strap found tucked underneath the heel section of the fin? Where any tests run to establish plausibility?
Cheers!
