Diver Conflict: What is the right thing to do in this case?
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THelsley
Guest
Here are some of my thoughts and key points:
- You are always responsible for your own gear
- A good dive buddy watches out for his buddy and is conscientious about his buddy's gear as well as his own. Hey, dive gear isn't cheap.
- If it was something more expensive (BC, etc.) and he was careless with it, then no doubt I would expect more from him, but then again...
- I'd be just as mad at myself for not double-checking what he did. Perhaps you were also slightly at fault for not double-checking / watching him carefully? I'd probably blame myself just as much as I would him.
- Sounds a little like the guy was just inexperienced.
- Maybe the feeling was mutual... did you pitch in for gas, etc.?
- Sh** happens! Yep, it sucks losing gear.
- If you hadn't asked, would he have still offered the $30? Maybe he was offended that you asked him to replace the lost gear.
Bottom line, I'd be appreciative that he offered $30 even if it wasn't enough to replace everything of yours that he lost.
- You are always responsible for your own gear
- A good dive buddy watches out for his buddy and is conscientious about his buddy's gear as well as his own. Hey, dive gear isn't cheap.
- If it was something more expensive (BC, etc.) and he was careless with it, then no doubt I would expect more from him, but then again...
- I'd be just as mad at myself for not double-checking what he did. Perhaps you were also slightly at fault for not double-checking / watching him carefully? I'd probably blame myself just as much as I would him.
- Sounds a little like the guy was just inexperienced.
- Maybe the feeling was mutual... did you pitch in for gas, etc.?
- Sh** happens! Yep, it sucks losing gear.
- If you hadn't asked, would he have still offered the $30? Maybe he was offended that you asked him to replace the lost gear.
Bottom line, I'd be appreciative that he offered $30 even if it wasn't enough to replace everything of yours that he lost.
Night Diver
Guest
There's a difference between "expecting" something from him and "demanding" something from him. Sounds like you did both. Your story suggests that the two of you were crammed in a very small boat with gear crammed wherever it would fit. You guys had a "small gas leak" requiring that the already-crammed gear be rinsed and restowed. It may have been his carelessness that resulted in the loss of your bag but maybe it wasn't, neither of you saw the bag go over. You saw him stow it on the "side of the dinghy rim" (boaters tend to call it the gunwale) and didn't say anything about it apparently. So perhaps your point of view has its flaws.
In any event, the whole "conflict" sounds quite petty. How long did you wait before asking him to pay for the gear, did you give him an opportunity to offer or did you immediately start blustering about how he had to replace it? Frankly I probably would have offered to replace your gear but if you immediately got in my face about what looked like a careless error on both our parts, I might very well get turned off and become "icy" toward you too. Now you attack him personally and slam his lobster-hunting skills on public boards?
I don't know, man. I guess this is why I dive with my friends. Sorry about your fin.
In any event, the whole "conflict" sounds quite petty. How long did you wait before asking him to pay for the gear, did you give him an opportunity to offer or did you immediately start blustering about how he had to replace it? Frankly I probably would have offered to replace your gear but if you immediately got in my face about what looked like a careless error on both our parts, I might very well get turned off and become "icy" toward you too. Now you attack him personally and slam his lobster-hunting skills on public boards?
I don't know, man. I guess this is why I dive with my friends. Sorry about your fin.
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Sorry, but I'm on the side of he doesn't owe you anything. You are responsible for your gear. **** does happen and if you aren't going to make sure your gear is secure then it's your problem.
RS
Guest
This is a good point. It's an expensive hassle to own a boat. I've had occasions when I've taken friends out and paid for it (without asking for $20 bucks a head for fuel, etc.). It ticks you off when you get back to the dock and a few people jump off and head for their cars, without even offereing to help tie-up, let alone pay for gas.
Bobyjimmie
Contributor
I treat every person around me differently based on their interaction throughout life with me. Some people, like my brother in law, I would trust to let stow my gear as he would with me. Yet other people that I would offer to go along with me on a trip I wouldnt even expect them to go with me even after they say yes because they would flake. Are you getting my meaning here? Everyone is different and merits different handling depending on their attitude towards you and where they place you on their value system.
OP
shoupart
Contributor
To answer a couple of questions:
CodyJP: Yes, I would have helped to pay for some damage, had it been something out of our control and not due to to his negligence. I've had situations where a buddy has handed me something and I've dropped it (2 instances- one was a map and one was a weight pouch) and I had no qualms about replacing it for them.
Daddy Diver: Yeah, I usually put my fins, gloves, and mask in my lobster bag when I'm in a kayak or small boat because it contains all my stuff in one place and it's easy to secure. I am just glad that I didn't put all the usual gear into the bag on this incident. Also, I did stow my gear where it was safe- in the bow of the boat on the floor, in front of me.
SharkDZ: Yes, I'm definitely not diving with this guy anymore. I think an attitude of "**** happens" when misfortune strikes is not somebody I want to rely upon when things go wrong.
Evad: No, I didn't pay for gas. He'd called me up and invited me to come along. We were talking about future trips to Catalina and the gas costs of that, but since we were going a scant mile or less to the breakwater and back, he didn't seem to think the gas costs were substantial to warrant asking me to chip in for it.
THesley: I definitely feel partly responsible for not checking where he placed the bag and for not making sure he was handling it in the right way. I don't think he would have offered the $30, since he said that even that was too much for something beyond his control.
Night Diver: When I looked back and didn't see my bag, I asked him where it was. He looked around, realized it was gone, and said "Sorry, man." I wasn't upset, and I calmly asked if he would replace it. I didn't get in his face or get a temper or anything. He asked how much it was, and I told them. I was pretty laid back about the whole thing, and he was too, until his attitude suddenly turned 10 minutes later at the boat. Up till then, the whole time he was chatting about the dive and what we saw and stuff. Even when he got icy, I told him I didn't want to talk about this with anger, and tried to keep things civil.
Also, when did I personally attack the guy and slam his lobster diving skills? I tried to not do that, and if I did, please show me where so I can edit it out.
I think you might be thinking of that other post I wrote about a totally different dive buddy, and even then, I don't see how you concluded that I said anything derogatory about his hunting skills from that. Anyways, I have not posted the name of the diver in question.
Randolph: Sorry to hear about inconsiderate boating guests, but sometimes people don't know the cost and trouble that you incur when you're a boater. i am sure you know waaay more than the average person does about it and they have no idea what you have to do to keep it going.
Whenever I've gone on a private boat, the owner has always brought up sharing fuel costs well in advance, and I've always been happy to do so.
I realize it's tricky with friends because you could just be bringing them along as a gesture of friendship, and they might not feel obliged to pay for something they're invited upon or that a friend treats them to. I guess the best way is to make it clear from the start. If you ask, you shall receive, right? If you don't ask, people might not know what they can do to help you or show their appreciation.
thanks again for all the responses. It's been interesting to see how divers as a group react to this. By far the most common answer is something like "Your gear is your responsibility- no matter what the case is."
Whereas the people in the general public have said it's more a question of who handled it last is the one who is responsible.
CodyJP: Yes, I would have helped to pay for some damage, had it been something out of our control and not due to to his negligence. I've had situations where a buddy has handed me something and I've dropped it (2 instances- one was a map and one was a weight pouch) and I had no qualms about replacing it for them.
Daddy Diver: Yeah, I usually put my fins, gloves, and mask in my lobster bag when I'm in a kayak or small boat because it contains all my stuff in one place and it's easy to secure. I am just glad that I didn't put all the usual gear into the bag on this incident. Also, I did stow my gear where it was safe- in the bow of the boat on the floor, in front of me.
SharkDZ: Yes, I'm definitely not diving with this guy anymore. I think an attitude of "**** happens" when misfortune strikes is not somebody I want to rely upon when things go wrong.
Evad: No, I didn't pay for gas. He'd called me up and invited me to come along. We were talking about future trips to Catalina and the gas costs of that, but since we were going a scant mile or less to the breakwater and back, he didn't seem to think the gas costs were substantial to warrant asking me to chip in for it.
THesley: I definitely feel partly responsible for not checking where he placed the bag and for not making sure he was handling it in the right way. I don't think he would have offered the $30, since he said that even that was too much for something beyond his control.
Night Diver: When I looked back and didn't see my bag, I asked him where it was. He looked around, realized it was gone, and said "Sorry, man." I wasn't upset, and I calmly asked if he would replace it. I didn't get in his face or get a temper or anything. He asked how much it was, and I told them. I was pretty laid back about the whole thing, and he was too, until his attitude suddenly turned 10 minutes later at the boat. Up till then, the whole time he was chatting about the dive and what we saw and stuff. Even when he got icy, I told him I didn't want to talk about this with anger, and tried to keep things civil.
Also, when did I personally attack the guy and slam his lobster diving skills? I tried to not do that, and if I did, please show me where so I can edit it out.
I think you might be thinking of that other post I wrote about a totally different dive buddy, and even then, I don't see how you concluded that I said anything derogatory about his hunting skills from that. Anyways, I have not posted the name of the diver in question.
Randolph: Sorry to hear about inconsiderate boating guests, but sometimes people don't know the cost and trouble that you incur when you're a boater. i am sure you know waaay more than the average person does about it and they have no idea what you have to do to keep it going.
Whenever I've gone on a private boat, the owner has always brought up sharing fuel costs well in advance, and I've always been happy to do so.
I realize it's tricky with friends because you could just be bringing them along as a gesture of friendship, and they might not feel obliged to pay for something they're invited upon or that a friend treats them to. I guess the best way is to make it clear from the start. If you ask, you shall receive, right? If you don't ask, people might not know what they can do to help you or show their appreciation.
thanks again for all the responses. It's been interesting to see how divers as a group react to this. By far the most common answer is something like "Your gear is your responsibility- no matter what the case is."
Whereas the people in the general public have said it's more a question of who handled it last is the one who is responsible.
flyhigh123
Guest
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stuff happens, most of the responses are what i feel as well.
if i were the boat guy, I would offer to pay half...
since it seems that it wasn't 100% any single person's fault...
if i were the boat guy, I would offer to pay half...
since it seems that it wasn't 100% any single person's fault...
shakeybrainsurgeon
Contributor
The amount of money lost here is small, but this raises an interesting legal question if the amount involved was more signficant. For example, instead of a fin, what if a regulator and a computer were lost costing a total of, say, 2000 dollars?
It would be interesting to hear from the lawyers on the board. It is well and good to offer platitudes like "you are responsible for your own gear". Such Ward Cleaver reasoning, although common sense, doesn't apply in certain cases. When we accept someone else's property wilingly, even briefly, to care for it and it gets lost or damaged, we may be responsible, even without a "receipt". The fact that you may have been "stupid" to trust the other person doesn't absolve that person from responsibility.
In this case, write off the loss, it isn't worth hassling over. But if you handed him two grand worth of stuff to mind, and he took it knowing that he was expected to take care of it, he made a verbal contract with you to do so and I think he would be liable legally for the loss. But I may be wrong.Also, there is, as we all know, a difference between what is legally right and what is ethically right.
It would be interesting to hear from the lawyers on the board. It is well and good to offer platitudes like "you are responsible for your own gear". Such Ward Cleaver reasoning, although common sense, doesn't apply in certain cases. When we accept someone else's property wilingly, even briefly, to care for it and it gets lost or damaged, we may be responsible, even without a "receipt". The fact that you may have been "stupid" to trust the other person doesn't absolve that person from responsibility.
In this case, write off the loss, it isn't worth hassling over. But if you handed him two grand worth of stuff to mind, and he took it knowing that he was expected to take care of it, he made a verbal contract with you to do so and I think he would be liable legally for the loss. But I may be wrong.Also, there is, as we all know, a difference between what is legally right and what is ethically right.
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