Divemaster Responsibilities

[CDNScubaMoose]

It's not that complicated, when a neophyte dies in the company of an experienced practitioner who is being paid to be in the company of the neophyte, then that experienced practitioner's got, at a minimum, some serious explaining to do.

I agree - someone has some explaining to do with regards to site selection. Likewise there needs to be some explaining done about leaving the boat unattended (no it was not likely a contributing factor in this case but I don't think anyone is going to claim it was a safe thing to do).

However, this experienced practitioner was being paid to be in the company of several divers of various levels. If it was a one on one scenerio then I agree completely but the DM was leading a GROUP of divers - not an individual.

 

[rsldonk]

because they are allowed to finish a course that basically tells them dont worry someone will be able to take care of you, the DM will be there to help you no matter what. . .

Then you get an instructor like mine who said that if I don't pay attention to him, I only represented about $5 to him and he wouldn't worry about saving me if I did something incredibly stupid.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

So everyone who has posted an opinion has read every post in this thread? wow, I do apologize I didn't realize that I was among such upstanding Scubaboarders.

This disagreement between us revolved around the fact that you questioned if the OP was actually there or not. My point being that a complete reading of the thread would likely allow you to draw a different conclusion.

This was in response to your post, should have highlighted it for everyone to see "how are divers getting the idea that they are scuba tourists instead of actual divers" that it is because when divers are certified they are not given all the tools to succeed. But alas as that is a topic for a different thread, I digress.

I agree - this truly baffles me. If this (personal responsibility) is something that instructors aren't stressing then shame on them. If it something that the agencies are requiring then shame on them too. I am truely curious as to where this expectation is coming from ... are the courses soooo short that students are leaving them thinking, "damn - I don't know if I'm ready for what could happen, but that is ok - I'll stick with a DM since if something bad happens they'll have my back"?

 

[vondo]

3) One thing that troubles me is the number of participants in this thread who believe the DM is there for safety reasons. Are there instructors out there that are promoting this idea or is it an assumption that isn't being corrected? If so then how do we work towards eliminating this thinking - we've had mention of signs posted that are visible, there is a thread by JimLap that perhaps all new (old salts too maybe) divers should be reading, should we be requesting the various agencies to promote personal responsibility better?

Not an unreasonable assumption and I haven't seen anyone make this particular point: When a DM is on the boat, it is for safety reasons. They pick the site and make sure the conditions (current, viz) are safe for the customers. They are looking for divers surfacing away from the boat or divers having trouble. If a diver is having problems they will jump in and attempt a rescue. They are not just there to chat with the captain to keep him from getting bored while everyone else is underwater. So now you take a person who has a safety role on the surface, put him underwater and suddenly he is just a guide who has NO duties other than to swim the right way and point out cool stuff? I don't buy that.

On the other hand, as a diver, relying on someone else to keep me safe is crazy. I guess I would sum up the "DM in the water" role as guide, point out good stuff, try, to the best of their abilities, to keep track of divers staying near the DM, and bring the group up when gas supplies demand. That's generally the role I see DMs filling outside of the US. In the US, they are on the boat watching for trouble.

None of what I just wrote should be interpreted as assigning blame for the incident under discussion.

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

Not an unreasonable assumption and I haven't seen anyone make this particular point: When a DM is on the boat, it is for safety reasons. They pick the site and make sure the conditions (current, viz) are safe for the customers. They are looking for divers surfacing away from the boat or divers having trouble. If a diver is having problems they will jump in and attempt a rescue. They are not just there to chat with the captain to keep him from getting bored while everyone else is underwater. So now you take a person who has a safety role on the surface, put him underwater and suddenly he is just a guide who has NO duties other than to swim the right way and point out cool stuff? I don't buy that.

Interesting take on it - I hadn't looked at it from that perspective, I can see how someone might be able to make that same logical assumption. Particularily if it hadn't been expressly pointed out differently. Thanks for the different way of looking at this subject.

 

[Web Monkey]

My point was, 20 years experience has nothing to do with anything. I was attempting to illustrate more of the "I want someone to be my mommy" thinking, whether its the DM the federal government, whatever, that is ruining this country.

The point of this entire thread isn't that anybody wants a "mommy" it's that if someone called a "DiveMaster" takes you diving, you have the right to expect a level of professional care and judgement.

If the shop said "This is Willie, he's kind of freaked out being uinderwater, but we're hoping he gets used to it", I'm guessing you would have different expectations than if thay said you were getting a "DiveMaster".

Terry

 

[CDNScubaMoose]

The point of this entire thread isn't that anybody wants a "mommy" it's that if someone called a "DiveMaster" takes you diving, you have the right to expect a level of professional care and judgement.

If the shop said "This is Willie, he's kind of freaked out being uinderwater, but we're hoping he gets used to it", I'm guessing you would have different expectations than if thay said you were getting a "DiveMaster".

Terry

The question is what does that level of professional care look like? Is it selecting appropriate sites based on a person's cert level or experience level (I agree that this didn't happen in this case but at the same time I have seen divers with over 100 dives and an AOW card that are still a CF and shouldn't be on this type of dive)? Is it giving a thorough breifing - I think the answer is yes but what should this include (hand signals, gas checking protocols, dive site description, length of dive, assigning buddy teams, reminding divers they are responsible for themselves - not an entire list and not stating that all of these have to be in it)? What about in water behavior - are they expected to heard everyone together and spend more time looking backwards or spending more time looking for cool things so the divers enjoy their dive?

I agree that safety has to be a primary concern of DM's but I think proper expectations have to be set by divers on what then need/want from their DM's. I also feel that instructors have to improve on educating students on what their responsibilities are and how to communicate they're needs and wants to these DM's. If it is hand holding that you need/want - then either hire a private DM to be your buddy or demand from your instructor a level of training that allows you to not require this level of attention.

 

[pilot fish]

When peope use loaded, emasculating phrases like " you need/want your hand held " or, " don't expect a baby sitter " etc it shows me they are totally missing the obvious point of a DM -why do dive ops use and PADI recommend, a person with the training of a DIVE MASTER onboard to lead a dive? As Web Monkey correctly asks, if not to render some level of security, safety and dive leadership, what function does the DM onboard a dive boat have If not to oversee the dive, then why not use freaked out Wille who's inbetween jobs?

Now, think back to YOUR first dives post cert, the very first few dives, where you glad the boat had a dive master, or one that was called a DM, onboard because you felt it would add some measure of safety to your dive and that the person leading the dive would take you to a site that was not dangerous?? be honest.

The point of this entire thread isn't that anybody wants a "mommy" it's that if someone called a "DiveMaster" takes you diving, you have the right to expect a level of professional care and judgement.

If the shop said "This is Willie, he's kind of freaked out being uinderwater, but we're hoping he gets used to it", I'm guessing you would have different expectations than if thay said you were getting a "DiveMaster".

Terry

 

[pilot fish]

Not sure you realize that your posts on this subject, DM and Instructors duties, has an element of CYA in them? Why do YOU think Dive Opsput a person with the rating of DM on a dive boat?

There's that loaded term again, HAND HOLDING How about a minimum level of care and safety, which was flagrantly missing from that dive boat, AND DM?, and part of what the deceased diver paid for?

The question is what does that level of professional care look like? Is it selecting appropriate sites based on a person's cert level or experience level (I agree that this didn't happen in this case but at the same time I have seen divers with over 100 dives and an AOW card that are still a CF and shouldn't be on this type of dive)? Is it giving a thorough breifing - I think the answer is yes but what should this include (hand signals, gas checking protocols, dive site description, length of dive, assigning buddy teams, reminding divers they are responsible for themselves - not an entire list and not stating that all of these have to be in it)? What about in water behavior - are they expected to heard everyone together and spend more time looking backwards or spending more time looking for cool things so the divers enjoy their dive?

I agree that safety has to be a primary concern of DM's but I think proper expectations have to be set by divers on what then need/want from their DM's. I also feel that instructors have to improve on educating students on what their responsibilities are and how to communicate they're needs and wants to these DM's. If it is hand holding that you need/want - then either hire a private DM to be your buddy or demand from your instructor a level of training that allows you to not require this level of attention.

 

[ScubaSteve]

I agree that safety has to be a primary concern of DM's but I think proper expectations have to be set by divers on what then need/want from their DM's

But what is the point of a diver deciding this if the DM / Dive Ops have a different opinion and will play that card if it hits the fan? The DM/Op does not care what happens as long as THEY are protected from the law and moral obligation. This MAY NOT be the case with all of you so I am not completely generalizing, but it is painfully obvious that this is the case with MANY.

So what is the point of the diver deciding anything? They are the one that may not know better. Perhaps it would be better if those that have the information share the information.