MichaelBaranows
Contributor
It is simple the LDS sets the rules and you follow them or move on.
DiveMaster/LDS conflict
- Thread starter jepuskar
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Yes Jason thats the way of the world. Same thing when I first came out of my ITC I instructed for the shop that I was certified a DM with. They told me they wanted me to wear US Diver Pro Line and lose my Poseidon regulators and my Sea Quest stab jacket. But as an Instructor they gave me cost and sold my used equipment for me. Every year we'd put our equipment in rental and given everything new except wet suits. We would be charged 5% over cost.
Staff Divemasters would be charged a little more to replace their stuff I think 10% over cost at the time of the change but no prevision to swap every year. But a standard 10 % over on any purchase.
Run that up the flag pole. Good luck.
Staff Divemasters would be charged a little more to replace their stuff I think 10% over cost at the time of the change but no prevision to swap every year. But a standard 10 % over on any purchase.
Run that up the flag pole. Good luck.
Wow, Interesting Thread.
Makes me wonder what happens in Chapter 23 (reference to the Movie "Number 23"). Did Jason get his DM cert? Did he end up conforming and using his old setup? Did he go back and help out at the dive shop, with classes? Did Jason's gf do here aow? Does she now feel like a blood traitor, having bought her gear from the shop? Is this too much for their relationship to to handle, does she feel more loyalty to the shop than Jason? Will Jason certify his girlfriend as aow- one-day- making her knowledge official? Is the conflict resolved, is there a peaceful ending, do they all get along in the end? Come on gives us the update!!!
Since I've made these 17 pages, I might as well throw my take in too. Although I know it's all been said one way or the other here it goes.
1. Open water courses can now be given in as little as two days. That's right pool work videos, tests, 4 OW dives (although you would probably have had to do some home-study and knowledge reviews prior to theses days). I can barely remember my particular OW course ten years ago, but I can remember my tech classes, and I think there is a similar sensation of being pretty task loaded during your training. I felt if I had to do one more thing during a tech dive I wouldn't be able to keep up with it all. ie changing gases at different depths deploying lift bags watching my time, on my arm and comparing it to my plan, making sure this gas was on this gas was off, I have communicated with my buddy shown my buddy that I had the right gas - all while deploying a lift bag watching my buoyancy, reeling in my real, just thinking about it all is a task.
My point is that with the system, the way it is (streamlined), so that you could do your PADI OW in 2 days, you should keep superfluous information to yourself and focus on making sure that the diver has what is needed to a. pass the course (standards), b. remember what they have learned, c. be safe d. remain motivated return to diving as soon as possible to get more practice and commit this skills to memory.
These standard have been designed for maximum learning and retention. Everybody thinks they have a better way. Prove it. For all of those who bash PADI, which I have at various times, have to hand it to them they have a way of marketing diving, which in turn keeps the industry alive. With out that marketing diving would be mainly for the elite. PADI has proven that their way works for nearly everyone. If you think more needs to be taught, either go with a system that allows you to incorporate additional material (to my knowledge PADI is vary limiting in this area), or try to change the standards (good Luck!). As it is, the PADI course (RSTC stardards), incorporates as much as the average person can accommodate in a short period of time (little as two days). It is imparitive that they get the most essential training using gear typical/most common for the type of diving found in that area, ie. tropics= vest style bc with octo. Is it wrong to familiarize them with other systems during an equipment briefing? No, of course not, however I think that they should be trained be able to perform skills on one type of system (doesn't matter which), before being trained on others - keeps task loading down, retention up.
2. Believe it or not most dive shops hardly profit at all from the sale of courses. It is actually the retail aspect that keeps them alive to provide us with (relatively) cheap courses, trips, and other diving services. So what if they want to make a profit from selling gear at their store in return for offering other services at close to cost. They have a right to try protect their business by having their EMPLOYEE'S dress up like merchandising "billboards" (we're all really billboards in some form), uniform, or whatever while they are on duty or teaching. The truth is, no matter what our personal equipment is and how loyal we are to it, most of the major brands of equipment are safe, you are not going to die if you where a Mares, an Oceanic, a Tusa, Cressi Sup, Apeks, Aqualung, or major brand XYZ bc reg or whatever. If you are not comfortable with the gear then you have a personal responsibility to get comfortable by "breaking it in," practicing with it in the pool or whatever before teaching students in it. If you are not comfortable wearing the equipment because you think it is not safe, you shouldn't be working for a dive shop that would sell unsafe equipment in the first place. Bottom line, for the students and yourself KISS, and wear the gear your dive shop sells, or don't work for them there are hundreds of other DM's and Instructors out there who are willing to support their LDS, at least while they are paying them (either monetarily or services or whatever arrangement you have).
On another note, I would expect the dive shop to give you the same loyalty that they ask from you by providing you with gear fitting a professional while working at the shop, and/or gear to borrow until you are able to purchase that said gear at little to no profit to the shop.
3. In reference to a DMC, it becomes a little trickier because the DMC is usually paying for the experience, and sometimes that even includes paying for the OW dives he does with the students. IMO - if he is being represented as a member of the dive shop, and the dive shop, wants him to wear gear they carry, it is a reasonable request if he was notified of this before committing payment to the shop. Otherwise the contract must be renegotiated. If the DMC is being represented as a student, he should be allowed to where his own configuration. However, as an instructor, this would limit his involvement in my classes, to keep confusion to a minimum. This is also my right as long as I can still fulfill the DMC's required class participations, etc. As I do believe that he should sacrifice his preferences, for the students benefit. After the class and as certified diver's I would have no problem with him getting in the pool or going on fun dives and showing off his really cool gear. Also, this may differ depending on the system he is teaching/dm'ing - it may even be a standard to where a vest style bc, that he must own himself of professional quality, in that case he would not have completed the requirements for the course unless he does obtains such.
A side note, a DM, should be able to safely/comfortable dive (in a non-overhead environment) in different configurations/gear, with little practice - no prob.
So my advice to Jason, if you truly want to help the students, suck it up and pick your battles for something that really matter's, or find someone, like me, who was tired of the corporate "requirements" and went independent.
Work for a LDS or someone else - obey their rules - If you don't like them go self-employed.
---------- end of Discussion -------
A little of my history. I have worked for diver mills, large dive corporations, LDS's, and have been an independent Instructor. I can honestly say that they all have there benefits, and sacrificing. I teach several different systems and can also say that there are ones that I prefer but can't say there is one "best" way. I dive recreational and Tech - IMO there is no true hybrid configuration that can handle both situations equally as well as a dedicated set for rec or for tech (of course this depends on the parameters i.e. easy of transporting it around, and setup, vs ability to facilitate five or more tanks etc) although I do like the idea and function-ability of the halcyon setup and idea. This is why I teach in a jacket, and dive on my own in wings, I breath the long hose sometimes and sometimes I wear and octo. Is there anything wrong with teaching the DIR way not at all it definitely has it's advantages. But so does PADI and other vest style systems, why? Unless you are going to take your halcyon system every time you are going to go on vacation and might go diving, you will probably be renting a vest style bc at sometime in your life and should be comfortable with it's configuration.
- sorry for the long post, I just wanted to give you enough ammo for a brutal retort. LOL
Makes me wonder what happens in Chapter 23 (reference to the Movie "Number 23"). Did Jason get his DM cert? Did he end up conforming and using his old setup? Did he go back and help out at the dive shop, with classes? Did Jason's gf do here aow? Does she now feel like a blood traitor, having bought her gear from the shop? Is this too much for their relationship to to handle, does she feel more loyalty to the shop than Jason? Will Jason certify his girlfriend as aow- one-day- making her knowledge official? Is the conflict resolved, is there a peaceful ending, do they all get along in the end? Come on gives us the update!!!
Since I've made these 17 pages, I might as well throw my take in too. Although I know it's all been said one way or the other here it goes.
1. Open water courses can now be given in as little as two days. That's right pool work videos, tests, 4 OW dives (although you would probably have had to do some home-study and knowledge reviews prior to theses days). I can barely remember my particular OW course ten years ago, but I can remember my tech classes, and I think there is a similar sensation of being pretty task loaded during your training. I felt if I had to do one more thing during a tech dive I wouldn't be able to keep up with it all. ie changing gases at different depths deploying lift bags watching my time, on my arm and comparing it to my plan, making sure this gas was on this gas was off, I have communicated with my buddy shown my buddy that I had the right gas - all while deploying a lift bag watching my buoyancy, reeling in my real, just thinking about it all is a task.
My point is that with the system, the way it is (streamlined), so that you could do your PADI OW in 2 days, you should keep superfluous information to yourself and focus on making sure that the diver has what is needed to a. pass the course (standards), b. remember what they have learned, c. be safe d. remain motivated return to diving as soon as possible to get more practice and commit this skills to memory.
These standard have been designed for maximum learning and retention. Everybody thinks they have a better way. Prove it. For all of those who bash PADI, which I have at various times, have to hand it to them they have a way of marketing diving, which in turn keeps the industry alive. With out that marketing diving would be mainly for the elite. PADI has proven that their way works for nearly everyone. If you think more needs to be taught, either go with a system that allows you to incorporate additional material (to my knowledge PADI is vary limiting in this area), or try to change the standards (good Luck!). As it is, the PADI course (RSTC stardards), incorporates as much as the average person can accommodate in a short period of time (little as two days). It is imparitive that they get the most essential training using gear typical/most common for the type of diving found in that area, ie. tropics= vest style bc with octo. Is it wrong to familiarize them with other systems during an equipment briefing? No, of course not, however I think that they should be trained be able to perform skills on one type of system (doesn't matter which), before being trained on others - keeps task loading down, retention up.
2. Believe it or not most dive shops hardly profit at all from the sale of courses. It is actually the retail aspect that keeps them alive to provide us with (relatively) cheap courses, trips, and other diving services. So what if they want to make a profit from selling gear at their store in return for offering other services at close to cost. They have a right to try protect their business by having their EMPLOYEE'S dress up like merchandising "billboards" (we're all really billboards in some form), uniform, or whatever while they are on duty or teaching. The truth is, no matter what our personal equipment is and how loyal we are to it, most of the major brands of equipment are safe, you are not going to die if you where a Mares, an Oceanic, a Tusa, Cressi Sup, Apeks, Aqualung, or major brand XYZ bc reg or whatever. If you are not comfortable with the gear then you have a personal responsibility to get comfortable by "breaking it in," practicing with it in the pool or whatever before teaching students in it. If you are not comfortable wearing the equipment because you think it is not safe, you shouldn't be working for a dive shop that would sell unsafe equipment in the first place. Bottom line, for the students and yourself KISS, and wear the gear your dive shop sells, or don't work for them there are hundreds of other DM's and Instructors out there who are willing to support their LDS, at least while they are paying them (either monetarily or services or whatever arrangement you have).
On another note, I would expect the dive shop to give you the same loyalty that they ask from you by providing you with gear fitting a professional while working at the shop, and/or gear to borrow until you are able to purchase that said gear at little to no profit to the shop.
3. In reference to a DMC, it becomes a little trickier because the DMC is usually paying for the experience, and sometimes that even includes paying for the OW dives he does with the students. IMO - if he is being represented as a member of the dive shop, and the dive shop, wants him to wear gear they carry, it is a reasonable request if he was notified of this before committing payment to the shop. Otherwise the contract must be renegotiated. If the DMC is being represented as a student, he should be allowed to where his own configuration. However, as an instructor, this would limit his involvement in my classes, to keep confusion to a minimum. This is also my right as long as I can still fulfill the DMC's required class participations, etc. As I do believe that he should sacrifice his preferences, for the students benefit. After the class and as certified diver's I would have no problem with him getting in the pool or going on fun dives and showing off his really cool gear. Also, this may differ depending on the system he is teaching/dm'ing - it may even be a standard to where a vest style bc, that he must own himself of professional quality, in that case he would not have completed the requirements for the course unless he does obtains such.
A side note, a DM, should be able to safely/comfortable dive (in a non-overhead environment) in different configurations/gear, with little practice - no prob.
So my advice to Jason, if you truly want to help the students, suck it up and pick your battles for something that really matter's, or find someone, like me, who was tired of the corporate "requirements" and went independent.
Work for a LDS or someone else - obey their rules - If you don't like them go self-employed.
---------- end of Discussion -------
A little of my history. I have worked for diver mills, large dive corporations, LDS's, and have been an independent Instructor. I can honestly say that they all have there benefits, and sacrificing. I teach several different systems and can also say that there are ones that I prefer but can't say there is one "best" way. I dive recreational and Tech - IMO there is no true hybrid configuration that can handle both situations equally as well as a dedicated set for rec or for tech (of course this depends on the parameters i.e. easy of transporting it around, and setup, vs ability to facilitate five or more tanks etc) although I do like the idea and function-ability of the halcyon setup and idea. This is why I teach in a jacket, and dive on my own in wings, I breath the long hose sometimes and sometimes I wear and octo. Is there anything wrong with teaching the DIR way not at all it definitely has it's advantages. But so does PADI and other vest style systems, why? Unless you are going to take your halcyon system every time you are going to go on vacation and might go diving, you will probably be renting a vest style bc at sometime in your life and should be comfortable with it's configuration.
- sorry for the long post, I just wanted to give you enough ammo for a brutal retort. LOL
Ahhh horsepucky. I like to break rules
It's more fun It's simple. Forget the stupid "rules". Teach people to dive, I mean really dive. Use people that can teach people regardless of the friggin gear. In the long run you'll get more repeat business. Wearing gear has nothing to do with selling it. Look at what the big guys are doing here on Scubaboard. Some of them are marketing gurus. They know what they're doing and don't have to resort to dinosaur business practices to try and sell overpriced gear to newbies and divemasters/instructors that buy into that stupid LDS crap. All of the local dinosaurs go around *****ing about the internet while the other guys embrace it and BLOW them out of the water in sales.
Holy resurected thread Batman.....
well I kicked it off figured I might as well contribute
It's not not all that unusual for stores to require their Instructors and DM's to use the brands of equipment stocked by the store. This is quite common, actually. No need to get bent out of shape over it.
Breaking the rules is definitely more fun!!!Ahhh horsepucky. I like to break rules
It's simple. Forget the stupid "rules". Teach people to dive, I mean really dive. Use people that can teach people regardless of the friggin gear. In the long run you'll get more repeat business. Wearing gear has nothing to do with selling it. Look at what the big guys are doing here on Scubaboard. Some of them are marketing gurus. They know what they're doing and don't have to resort to dinosaur business practices to try and sell overpriced gear to newbies and divemasters/instructors that buy into that stupid LDS crap. All of the local dinosaurs go around *****ing about the internet while the other guys embrace it and BLOW them out of the water in sales.
I agree dive shops don't really have to require their instructors/DM's to sell gear and make a living. But as long as you work for a place that thinks you do and requires you to wear their gear, then you should respect their wishes as long as you work for them, and be a team player. If there is something you don't agree with on principle then you should hold your tongue, unless you are specifically asked about it, last thing you want to be is a disgruntled employee who bad talks the place he works for and also transfers that feeling to his divers causing a bad association with diving (that happens), if it's something that you believe compromises you to the point where it will be a problem, talk to the owner/manager if it can't be resolved then you have no choice but to leave (you should be true to yourself). If it's your job to sell, then sell what the shop has. I would never advocate lying. Stick to the truth, if someone asks if this is a good fin you can honestly say what you think, you can sell more by being honest than not, but be fair pointing out the good with the bad, offer a comparable alternative, last resort try and see what you can do to get the product you think that he needs either at your store or at least a good price from a local store. Just keep in mind that not everyone has the same budget to buy the best, typically something in the middle (cost vs benefit) is really better for the average diver who isn't going to be doing 300 dives a year in freezing water's to 300 ft. It's really cool to have gear that could do that but not really worth the extra $300-1000, unless you are going to actually need something that can do it. Most regs are safe, some breath a little better, some you don't have to adjust as often, perform better at depth, the right reg for the right person, try not to be biast by only selling the right reg that is right for you. Be sensible most dive shops carry a few major brands and they all (major brands) have their benefits/negatives that usually balance out. Just because something isn't the very best doesn't mean it isn't any good at all.
"Use people that can teach people regardless of the friggin gear." exactly it's not that big of deal so why quit over it or make a big deal of it?
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