Dive world is better off with tougher courses?

[MikeFerrara]

It's funny, the same arguments are made by motorcycle riders about rider training and licensing. You can get yourself into more trouble buying a brand new sport bike with no training than going SCUBA diving after getting certified by PADI

How so? DEad is dead right? Is "dead" resulting from screwing up on a sport bike worse than "dead" resulting from screwing up on a dive?

The main question is really, should we have the freedom to do that?

We should be allowed to kill ourselves in any way that we see fit. Some truth in advertising would be nice though.

 

[underwasser bolt]

Do the dive shop/instructor who notices that a student isn't ready for the checkout dives go and say,"sorry but you're going to need more pool time. Come back next week and don't forget it's going to cost you more since it's extra days."

the instructor did just that to my son last week; he finished his jr OW this weekend.

 

[Mako Mark]

The whole C card issue was developed by the dive industry in order to self regulate.

They are not licenses and therefore cannot be revoked.

There are reccommendations that say "if you havent dived for a while get remedial training" Dive operators interpret this on an individual basis.

The only thing that Agencies could do is to better define "If you havent dived in a while" is and create a current or not current status and incorperate it into their standards and proceedures.

If you asked me "should we make a scuba review mandatory after a specified period of time" I would answer yes.

If you asked me should we revoke c cards, I would say no. They are recognition of training, not ongoing ability or competence.

 

[MikeFerrara]

If you asked me "should we make a scuba review mandatory after a specified period of time" I would answer yes.

I would answer "no" because I don't recognize the authority of any one in the dive industry to regulate me. LOL, if they want to regulate themselves that fine. Of course, the owner of a boat can refuse to let me on for whatever reason he/she chooses but there is plenty of ocean, lake, river and cave where there just isn't anyone around to check cards.

On the count of three, everyone cut up all their cards and pitch them. One...two...

 

[SNorman]

How so? DEad is dead right? Is "dead" resulting from screwing up on a sport bike worse than "dead" resulting from screwing up on a dive?

I'd venture to say that you are much more likely to kill yourself with a sportbike and no training than with SCUBA equipment and a PADI cert, that's all

 

[Thalassamania]

This is a tough question with so many facets to explore, my favorite is how can you revoke somebody’s cert that was sold to them as lifetime? I suppose that you could change the system from this point forward, is that necessary, well I don't want to be the person responsible for that.

While I think that was a facetious suggestion something similar has been done before. As I noted in another thread:

... the first national standards for training were those of the YMCA and NAUI. Those standards were put together not by ex-military divers but by a mix of academics, public sector recreation officials and YMCA types leavened with a few pioneer shop owners. There was little or no ex-military diver input to that. In 1966 PADI was founded. The way PADI built their initial rolls (instructor and bank) was to offer an Instructor card to anyone who would mail in $25.00 and some kind of "proof" that they had taught diving (that could be nothing more than a letter from the would-be instructor making the claim). A number of military divers (not always even military instructors) took advantage of this offer upon separation and PADI got a reputation as the most "hard-assed" agency out there. This was amplified by the fact that these instructors got no training or testing from PADI, they got a card and a few pages of minimum standards, which were essentially cribbed from the NAUI and YMCA standards that were already out there. So they taught what they knew, in the way that they had been taught.

Are you starting to get a feel for where the "don't exceed standards" mentality came from? When both training and new diver fatalities skyrocketed in number through the mid and late 1970s it became essential to reign in the Frankenstein monster that PADI had created. PADI successfully stopped their runaway train by creating two levels of instructor, a "scuba instructor" (which everyone already was) and a new "open water instructor" which you had to become to take students into open water. This weeded out the dead wood, the more militaristic butt-heads (and the pets that many instructors certified as a joke). It forced those without previous instructor training to actually get some and the fatality numbers dropped.

These Instructors effectively had their cards canceled. An agency could do much the same thing for regular divers by introducing a new series of course titles and redefining the meaning of the old ones and requiring their affiliated facilities to not "honor" the old cards for either fills or sales.

Clearly that's not going to ever happen though.

 

[texarkandy]

Well, I am a noob and a "McDiver" grad, but will throw my 2 psi in here about the slams on "McDiver" courses:

Scenario 1: Two already water-comfortable people intensly & thoroughly study their PADI manuals for 4 weeks on their own, learn how to work the tables on their own by reading the book & figuring it out themselves so they really understand how it all works - read scubaboard, etc, etc - make 100 on their written test with no cheating - go for a two day "McDiver" PADI OW cert weekend at local lake that includes all pool work & OW checkout dives - get their C-Cards, buy their own entry level equip.(inclu tanks after research & consultaion with others- practice in their home pool - make the effort meet up with other active divers in the local dive community & do 10 OW dives in the first year at local lakes/quarry/etc (+ several more on their 1st dive vacation that summer) - continue to read ScubaBoard & other sites, books, etc after the regular warm dive season is over

Scenario 2: Two OW divers (maybe one or both not entirely water comfortable) take a 4 or 6 week course, 2 nights a week at a local LDS (pick your cert agency PADI, NAUI etc) (except GUE of course) - miss a couple of nights, half pay attention during class sometimes, an instructor walks them through working the tables but they really don't understand the concepts, maybe don't learn tables at all, make an 85 on their written test - go for an OW day at the local lake get c-cards - immediately take a 3 day trip to Coz and go on half a dozen Coz DiveMaster led trust-me dives in rental gear - don't dive again for the rest of the year, read about any diving, or really even think about diving.

Who do you feel better about diving with next May? The "McDivers" or the "traditional" course folks?

I submit for all of your esteemed and experienced consideration the theory that "It's not so much the Agency or the Instructor, it's the student!"

 

[Thalassamania]

...
I submit for all of your esteemed and experienced consideration the theory that "It's not so much the Agency or the Instructor, it's the student!"

I submit for your consideration that as an instructor I'd not put up with either situation, I'd be irresponsible if I certified either group.

 

[JCAT]

The whole C card issue was developed by the dive industry in order to self regulate.

If you asked me "should we make a scuba review mandatory after a specified period of time" I would answer yes.

If you asked me should we revoke c cards, I would say no. They are recognition of training, not ongoing ability or competence.

This seems logical to me. To maintain current diver status, one must complete open water check-outs every 2nd year. Charge a eval fee for instructors time.

However, I see Mike's point as well.

I would answer "no" because I don't recognize the authority of any one in the dive industry to regulate me. LOL, if they want to regulate themselves that fine. Of course, the owner of a boat can refuse to let me on for whatever reason he/she chooses but there is plenty of ocean, lake, river and cave where there just isn't anyone around to check cards.

 

[MikeFerrara]

This seems logical to me. To maintain current diver status, one must complete open water check-outs every 2nd year. Charge a eval fee for instructors time.

However, I see Mike's point as well.

I think it's impractical for a lot of reasons but here's one. I have a whole bunch of certifications from at least four different agencies. Do I have to retest for each every two years?