NWGratefulDiver:
If he is certified by an agency (who must be assumed to be expert), what more would you need to know?
Dive world is better off with tougher courses?
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If he is certified by an agency (who must be assumed to be expert), what more would you need to know?
daniel f aleman
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An agency certification card is good enough, Mike; what more do you want to know?
Hank49
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NWGratefulDiver:
I would guess that's a percentage of them but many, if not more, just aren't living in a place where continued diving is available, affordable, or desirable. They go on a once in ten year vacation, try it and go home to Iowa. Or take the course in....pick a Midwest or inland state...and go dive in a cold, low vis quarry and decide that it's not that much fun.... EVEN if they got good training.
rhadamantus
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all4scuba05:
as far as recreational diving is concerned, i do not think revoking c-cards is a viable idea; it is costly (you have to set up a universal scuba body to set up the rules and review cases- and you know that can get really $h*tty...), it is reactive rather than preventive, and this sport is -first and foremost- an activity that pleases one's self. most people who took up scuba and continued diving afterwards did so because they enjoy the sport, and u can't enjoy the sport unless you know exactly how to do the basics properly...
there will always be "clueless and dangerous" divers. there's no such group with perfect profiles. scuba taught us how to be responsible divers first and foremost, so that ought to help us know how to deal with divers we think are challenged or idiots.
but i do agree with nemrod. the AOW course should be toughen up. it is after all called advanced...now if they called it intermediate....
daniel f aleman:
Good enough for what? If I still had a dive shop a card and a few bucks would get the diver an air fill. However, if we are going to plan some diving together, the card alone tells me very little of value. In fact, I'd take just about the same apprach to diving with someone whether they have a card or not. If there is a reliable reference (the card is NOT one of those), we might be a little further ahead. I should rephrase that. It's pretty reliable but not in a good way.
OP
all4scuba05
Contributor
My OP was not phrased well at all.
There are some things that are not covered enough in class/pools. The less they cover, the higher the pass rate. Can we agree on that? Is that what's best for the dive industry? Does more certs mean more $$?
I chose the word "tough" in the OP but meant "comprehensive". I kid you not, there are some with certs who still can't remove and replace a mask without panicking. I do agree that classes should be longer and cover more. The testing needs improvement as well. If it takes you 5 minutes to get your buoyancy right once you reach bottom, you're not ready for the OW.
Anyway. My question is...If NATO's Scuba Police tested all divers and revoked c-cards from those that were a danger to themselves, others, or to the sealife because of their lack of skills, would that bother you or would you be happy that now they have to go get some better training?
Keep in mind, that if half the divers lose their certs, the dive industry loses a lot of money via sales and trips. I would see things getting more expensive so the LDS and charters won't starve.
There are some things that are not covered enough in class/pools. The less they cover, the higher the pass rate. Can we agree on that? Is that what's best for the dive industry? Does more certs mean more $$?
I chose the word "tough" in the OP but meant "comprehensive". I kid you not, there are some with certs who still can't remove and replace a mask without panicking. I do agree that classes should be longer and cover more. The testing needs improvement as well. If it takes you 5 minutes to get your buoyancy right once you reach bottom, you're not ready for the OW.
Anyway. My question is...If NATO's Scuba Police tested all divers and revoked c-cards from those that were a danger to themselves, others, or to the sealife because of their lack of skills, would that bother you or would you be happy that now they have to go get some better training?
Keep in mind, that if half the divers lose their certs, the dive industry loses a lot of money via sales and trips. I would see things getting more expensive so the LDS and charters won't starve.
daniel f aleman
Contributor
MikeFerrara:
Exactly.
Our materials stressed that a certification was "a license to learn more". In fact, that was even one of the questions on the test (and if you're reading this and thinking, "Ha-HA! Now I know an answer!", I'm thinking back, "Woo-hoo! Now they'll *remember* it!"). If everyone stressed that, the whole "is it hard enough" question would be moot.
As I see it, the problem is not that the courses are too easy. The problem is that there is a nickel-and-diming approach spreading through some approaches to dive training. Instead of emphasizing you're always learning, the process turns into "and for only $.39 more, we'll supersize your training by throwing in Other Stuff Level 7!" That approach compartmentalizes learning into prepackaged bites, with the result that people exposed to it start to assume that you only learn when you buy the next upgrade. Once they have that assumption, they often stop thinking about their diving at all.
Sure, there are lots of people who never grow out of the baseball, Pokemon, Magic, et cetera card-collecting phase. For them, the prospect of joining the Card of the Month (or whatever) Club is a positive force. For those who have grown out of it, on the other hand, the lure of Yet Another Card is no lure at all. They might be better served by a "dive fun day", where perhaps the instructor can still get his meager gratuity (or, if he's helping Bill Gates, maybe even what the instructor is really worth
) and the shop can still get some small use fees, but instead of a "Buoyancy Ninja Of Depth" card they are promised nothing but a good time with help and knowledge to become a better diver.
My buddy-family are all certified, and of the five of them, only one cared to continue with classes (and is working on NAUI Master Scuba Diver, last I heard). The rest have no real desire to get more cards, but they'd jump at the chance to get in the pool to work out some skills. They're certified divers, and while that's plenty for them, they know that I (and the highly-trained one of them) have some skills that could greatly help them. They don't want to pay for a whole course and checkout and all that, but getting in the pool to work on their trim and weighting and then just play around -- that'd be a fun evening.
Training will be what training will be, and there will always be a range from excellent instructors all the way to instructor-rated losers. I doubt I'm the only person who has improved my diving more by diving and by listening to my betters than from actual classes (in my case through no fault of my instructors -- I merely absorbed knowledge faster than they could get to it). The classes should give you the means to understand, but only actual wet work can solidify skills. (The *best* classes have enough wet work in the class itself to turn out fully-formed divers, but some of us are a bit past college age.)
If there were a less formal, more fun approach to improvement than classes, perhaps many divers could be improved. There would still be those who would never see their need for improvement, but nothing will help them -- if you made the course tougher, they wouldn't take it anyway.
It would, of course, require significantly more creativity and attention to fun than a by-the-book McCourse, but giving people an invitation to pay a small admission fee for "Scuba Fun and Game Night" seems like a better way to get them diving and learning. Few people start diving because they want to do lots of work and learn a bunch of facts; they get into diving because they want to have fun! Any attempt to simply cram more knowledge into them is bound to fail, but doping their fun with traces of skills and knowledge until they become addicted, *that* works almost every time.
(As an aside, we had this one guy on our checkout last weekend. He had come a while back, but he had some significant issues and was not certified at that time. At the instructors' invitation, he came back for more than one pool session, and they worked with him on his skills and general comfort and handling in the water. By the time he came on the checkout last weekend, the improvement was night-and-day. He had worked on his diving enough to be able to *dive*. He was paying attention to his surroundings, and he was communicating effectively. By the end of the weekend, he had shown himself capable of handling himself and the skills, and he openly accepted that getting his card was only the beginning -- he had simply arrived at the starting point to becoming a *good* diver, and he was very grateful for the effort everyone had put into helping him get there.
While I've met some unpleasant and ungrateful student and new divers (including the only guy I've ever seen thrown out of the checkout trip and told never to set foot in the shop again), the vast majority on the boat have been nice people who are genuinely grateful for any help or mentoring they may be offered. Perhaps we shouldn't look so much to the big, bad letter-people we can't do much about but instead look to the individual divers to whom we can ourselves lend a hand up. It takes more effort than complaining on a forum, but the results can be far more worthwhile.)
As I see it, the problem is not that the courses are too easy. The problem is that there is a nickel-and-diming approach spreading through some approaches to dive training. Instead of emphasizing you're always learning, the process turns into "and for only $.39 more, we'll supersize your training by throwing in Other Stuff Level 7!" That approach compartmentalizes learning into prepackaged bites, with the result that people exposed to it start to assume that you only learn when you buy the next upgrade. Once they have that assumption, they often stop thinking about their diving at all.
Sure, there are lots of people who never grow out of the baseball, Pokemon, Magic, et cetera card-collecting phase. For them, the prospect of joining the Card of the Month (or whatever) Club is a positive force. For those who have grown out of it, on the other hand, the lure of Yet Another Card is no lure at all. They might be better served by a "dive fun day", where perhaps the instructor can still get his meager gratuity (or, if he's helping Bill Gates, maybe even what the instructor is really worth
) and the shop can still get some small use fees, but instead of a "Buoyancy Ninja Of Depth" card they are promised nothing but a good time with help and knowledge to become a better diver.My buddy-family are all certified, and of the five of them, only one cared to continue with classes (and is working on NAUI Master Scuba Diver, last I heard). The rest have no real desire to get more cards, but they'd jump at the chance to get in the pool to work out some skills. They're certified divers, and while that's plenty for them, they know that I (and the highly-trained one of them) have some skills that could greatly help them. They don't want to pay for a whole course and checkout and all that, but getting in the pool to work on their trim and weighting and then just play around -- that'd be a fun evening.
Training will be what training will be, and there will always be a range from excellent instructors all the way to instructor-rated losers. I doubt I'm the only person who has improved my diving more by diving and by listening to my betters than from actual classes (in my case through no fault of my instructors -- I merely absorbed knowledge faster than they could get to it). The classes should give you the means to understand, but only actual wet work can solidify skills. (The *best* classes have enough wet work in the class itself to turn out fully-formed divers, but some of us are a bit past college age.
)If there were a less formal, more fun approach to improvement than classes, perhaps many divers could be improved. There would still be those who would never see their need for improvement, but nothing will help them -- if you made the course tougher, they wouldn't take it anyway.
It would, of course, require significantly more creativity and attention to fun than a by-the-book McCourse, but giving people an invitation to pay a small admission fee for "Scuba Fun and Game Night" seems like a better way to get them diving and learning. Few people start diving because they want to do lots of work and learn a bunch of facts; they get into diving because they want to have fun! Any attempt to simply cram more knowledge into them is bound to fail, but doping their fun with traces of skills and knowledge until they become addicted, *that* works almost every time.
(As an aside, we had this one guy on our checkout last weekend. He had come a while back, but he had some significant issues and was not certified at that time. At the instructors' invitation, he came back for more than one pool session, and they worked with him on his skills and general comfort and handling in the water. By the time he came on the checkout last weekend, the improvement was night-and-day. He had worked on his diving enough to be able to *dive*. He was paying attention to his surroundings, and he was communicating effectively. By the end of the weekend, he had shown himself capable of handling himself and the skills, and he openly accepted that getting his card was only the beginning -- he had simply arrived at the starting point to becoming a *good* diver, and he was very grateful for the effort everyone had put into helping him get there.
While I've met some unpleasant and ungrateful student and new divers (including the only guy I've ever seen thrown out of the checkout trip and told never to set foot in the shop again), the vast majority on the boat have been nice people who are genuinely grateful for any help or mentoring they may be offered. Perhaps we shouldn't look so much to the big, bad letter-people we can't do much about but instead look to the individual divers to whom we can ourselves lend a hand up. It takes more effort than complaining on a forum, but the results can be far more worthwhile.)
rhadamantus
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all4scuba05:
honestly, the scuba police can make a better use of their time rather than pick out the unqualified c-card holders from a bag of recreational divers.
the cost, the effect of such in the demand and supply curves, the time, the effort...its not so worth the benefit.
unless of course we have 50% of all recreational divers not deserving their c-cards right now.
JackSpearo
Contributor
I think it would be okay to revoke certs, but I just wish it was a lot harder to get the certification in the first place...
I mean, I guess I wish there was a like 30% fail rate...
and then you had to retake the course over again...it should be similar to driver licenses...
I mean, I guess I wish there was a like 30% fail rate...
and then you had to retake the course over again...it should be similar to driver licenses...
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