#$%#$%@# Dive Training!

[scubasean]

divermasterB once bubbled...
Genesis...

Do you think that your girlfriend would still have been interested in taking up diving if it required that she commit 40-60 hours of her time for confined water and classroom instruction, plus 3-4 days for checkout dives?

at triple the cost....

 

[divermasterB]

SubMariner once bubbled...


A couple of things:

1) To an experienced diver like yourself, there may not seem to be a big difference between 57' and 70', but there is to a newly certified diver. Especially when you are talking about additional compression of neoprene and the bouyancy issues that creates.

I disagree with this one.

PN2 at 57 feet is 2.2 ATA
PN2 at 70 Feet is 2.5 ATA

Difference is only 13%.

The same goes for the %difference in buoyancy.


Now, based on Genesis' comments, I do believe that he may be putting a lot of performance pressure on his girlfriend, which probably along with anxiety about diving to a deeper depth in a place she doesn't know could affect her percormance.

It also sounds like he did nothing to brief her on the conditions for the dive, so she may not of even known the depth, bottom conditions, etc.

 

[Genesis]

First, as to briefing, yes, she got one. So did I. So did the others on the boat. To the best of my knowledge before going down there (depth, what we were on, (lack of) surface current, etc.) The silt situation was not anticipated (it wasn't there the last time I was.)

Its amazing how everyone wants to find some excuse for why an OW-certified diver didn't plan her own dive, and dive her own plan (for the record - she did, and she did - and other than this issue, she did REALLY well!), rather than looking at the issue raised - which is one of complete lack of attention by the instructor to one of the CRITICAL skills in diving.

I don't do charters. I own my own boat, and lots of folks dive on it with me. We're out having fun - there are no divemasters. Then again, if you have an OW card, you're supposed to be qualified to dive WITHOUT a divemaster! That's what the card represents!

40-60 hours of time? Sure. What turned her on to wanting to dive was when we went to Epcot and she saw me diving in their tank. She'd been on the boat a bunch of times before, fishing and getting a tan, but seeing me in the tank and how easy it looked did it for her.

No, my buoyancy wasn't PERFECT on my first OW dive. Compared to today, it sucked! But it wasn't UNSAFE. I did meet the test I proposed in the other thread - barely, but I met it. Then again I had an instructor that essentially INSISTED that we be able to handle this both in the pool AND on the first two shallow OW checkouts, and she worked with each of us until we DID. It was on THE critical skills list.

The day AFTER I got my OW card I climbed on board a local cattle boat, suited up, and jumped in with a randomly-assigned buddy (I was alone when I showed up at the shop and boat.) I was fine. No DM, no assistance. Yeah, it was kinda like your first "solo" flight in an airplane - a bit of an extra pucker factor - but that's ok.

You're telling me that you haven't seen the mess that many others report around here with new divers? I was not "sold" on this being representative until this series of incidents.

As I pointed out, it was not just her buoyancy control on the dive last weekend.

It was also watching an instructor have a STUDENT do a weight belt R&R on the BOTTOM at 57' during one of the checkouts (not her instructor, nor her shop.) It was personally witnessing an instructor NOT plan his checkout dives BEFORE the fact, and discovering AFTER getting back to the shop that they blew the SSI tables under which they were teaching. It was watching a guy jump in with an instructor, in full TECH gear suitable for DOUBLES, with a single tank, and have an instant full-on classic panic attack - on the surface - with his brand new, never-wet kit - a kit he almost certainly bought from the shop that took him on that boat (again, not the shop that owned the boat) In fact, I can list at least a dozen serious problems during those two days of diving on those checkouts, some of which had the potential to cause a student serious injury or worse, and all of which appear to have led to a bunch of people being issued cards which they simply did not earn by any objective standard. There were over two dozen students on the boat between those two dive days, and of them I saw more serious problems than I can clearly recall - only the worst of the violations stand out to the point that they are worthy of special mention.

Perfection in buoyancy isn't easy. Hell, I'm not perfect. I can't hold at 3" off the bottom and not occasionally touch. A foot or two, yeah, but some folks' standard of 3-6", in full tech gear? Probably not. I don't claim to be that good, and I sure as heck wasn't when I started diving. But holding depth with TEN feet (five each way) is certainly reasonable, even for a new OW diver.

Isn't it?

Dives? Three digits worth in the last year. I dive a LOT. I spearfish with guys who don't have "great" buoyancy control, but they have a lot of fun and still get the fish. Do I care about that? No. They're not unsafe; they may not look pretty, but they're in control enough to enjoy themselves. If they had to make a free ascent, they'd make it and be ok. (A few of them have!)

That's really the metric here. To occasionally stir up some silt is expected, especially with someone new. Hell I do it on occasion.

Its not lack of mastery here - its the obvious complete lack of attention and time spent on this skill during the class itself!

 

[Lead_carrier]

Genesis once bubbled...


Yes, I was at the checkout. I was not part of the class (not permitted to be, you see) but I was in the water at the same time. I saw PART of the skill evaluation and demonstration, but not all. Having students do skills kneeling on the bottom doesn't help with evaluating their buoyancy control, does it?

I won't even start on what I saw that day. Granted, most of it was other students and instructors (this shop allows other instructors and students to buy spots on their boats for OW checkouts), but some of it was RIGHT SCARY.

As a particularly ugly example I witnessed an instructor have his student DOFF HIS WEIGHT BELT at 57'. You read that right - he did the remove and replace skill for the belt at the bottom. Looked to be easily 12-15 lbs on there too. What do you think would have happened if he had DROPPED it? Is there any need to elaborate on the stupidity of that smooth move?

Or can we go into another area perhaps? This was an SSI class. After the second dive (yes, after!), back at the shop while filling out the logbooks for the dive, it was discovered that with the surface interval they did the SSI tables would not have permitted the second dive to have been made. So they did the logbooks on the PADI tables, which did permit the second dive.

Appropriate dive planning? Ex-freaking-scuse me? The students were ran off the end of the NDL tables for the agency in question and that's "ok", 'cause we can find a DIFFERENT table that permits the dive to be completed?

I'm not saying that my g/f's skill set is really much worse than anyone ELSE who comes out of these classes. It probably isn't! Hell, I saw plenty of "certified divers" on that same boat that same day doing the churn and burn deal too. I was the only diver doing my safety stop that day hanging motionless OFF the anchor line, mostly to avoid having some one come crashing into me and kicking my mask off my face.

The point is that by no estimation are these divers safe in the water, the dive planning skills demonstrated were non-existant, and these are so-called professionals.

In all honesty the particular "issue" my g/f has is one that I can easily take care of by diving with her a bit. We've talked about it already, and I'm going to fix her up with a tank of 32% this weekend on the same wreck where she certified for the express purpose of being able to get LOTS of bottom time and skill practice in. We're going to go down there and do buoyancy until she can decend without touching the line, yet parallel to it from the boat down to the sand, and ascend along it without touching it. Only THEN do I believe she is qualified as a real OW diver. Her daughter will likely be with us too; we'll ALL do it, together, as many times as we have to, and we'll stay within the tables - planning the dives and diving the plans.

I've seen some of the results of the so-called "training" sold these days, but until now I've not watched from start to finish. I urged my g/f to hold back on the OW certs for a couple of weeks to get more pool time, even though my pool is very shallow (5' max depth!) so she could get more time working on mask skills - she just wasn't comfortable taking it off underwater, and if you choke when its kicked off your face you're screwed!

But now, with it all behind both of them, and having seen the results, I believe that change is needed - and real, defined skill demonstrations instead of "loosey-goosey" things like "show buoyancy control."

If you're unhappy with the imposition of this accountability as an instructor, perhaps its because your students don't meet the standard proposed!

Log onto SSI and start procedures against the instructor and shop. If they violated as many standards as you say, they will have their affiliation pulled and their instructors will loose their certifications. Be prepared to put it in writing, with proof. Your g/f will have to colabarate, and anyone else in class should be more than willing to tell the truth about the lack of standards taught and falsifying of logbooks. That in itself will get a teaching certification revoked. You can also contact the regional represenative, Kirk Mortenson, about this shop, in fact, I'll email Kirk and let him know that you're going to email him about this shop.

 

[Genesis]

they just didn't execute the planned original dive (original was 20 mintues @ 60', and you can do two of those back-to-back - the problem was they spent ~25 minutes on the first dive, and then 25 on the second. By the SSI tables, you're an "E" diver after the first dive and you don't drop back down to a "D" for 57 minutes - they didn't have that SI - and to do a second 25 minute dive to 60' you must be in group "D" or lower.

So they logged the dives using the PADI tables instead, which permitted the dives.

Not exactly "falsified", but certainly done ad-hoc after the violation had taken place.

By the SSI tables, they had an omitted decompression stop and should have stayed at 15' for 10 minutes or longer.

BTW, my g/f was diving with my Vyper in gauge mode. I have the downloaded profiles on my computer. They leave nothing to debate in terms of the actual bottom time; the violation is clear.

So is the unsafe last 15' ascent on both dives.

 

[divermasterB]

Walter

So you have buddies who are experienced divers that you say haven't mastered this "Basic Skill" despite all the experience they have gained. Yet, you are slamming the instructor because he didn't get this across to your girlfriend in the course of a few dives.

1. No matter how much I emphasize, demonstrate, and correct buoyancy control, some students take longer to master it. That doesn't mean that they can't demonstrate buoyancy control, but it will take them a few dives to maintain it consistently throughout the dive.

2. Your buddies have logged several dives and still haven't mastered a skill you expected your girlfriend to demonstrate on her first dive after certification. You forgive their lack of skills and the training they received. Why the difference in standards of approval?

3. I am not taking issue with the other problems you had with the instructor. It does sound like this instructor was not really on top of his game. I don't think that we should change the system because of your experience with a poor instructor. I am just trying to get across the point that the OW certification is designed to teach a diver how to be safe, and let them demonstrate the skills that they can perform a safe dive. From that point on, they have a "License to learn" and they are turned out on their own to perfect these skills

4. You brought up the solo flight thing, so I am going to run with that one. As a student pilot, I had not mastered everything about flying, but I was deemed that I could fly well enough, to go out on my own and learn. The FAA has tons of restrictions and rules that they follow, but they recognize that some learning just has to happen in a sink, or swim (in this case Neutral or sink.) manner. That is what those first few hours of solo flight are about. Learning to control the airplane without the crutch of an instructor sitting next to you. OW Certification is roughly equivalent to that solo endorsement in your log book.

 

[drbill]

Genesis- While neutral buoyancy should be a critical acquired skill in BOW classes, it takes most people a number of dives to get it down. To expect your newly certified g/f to do it well is unrealistic. The fact that she seemed to recognize the problem after looking at the video is a good sign.

I see so many divers at Casino Pt., both in classes and certified, who don't have a clue about buoyancy control and trim. It really gets me PO'ed when an entire class WALKS on top of my body or camera while I'm lying on the bottom in 30 ft of water filming a subject. And then there are the ones who merely kick up the sand a few feet away so I can't even find the subject.

There seems to be far too much dependence on the arms in new divers. I almost never use mine unless a wicked surge tosses me into a rock while I am practicing dodging and weaving in the shallows (with no vis what else can I do?).

Dr. Bill

 

[Genesis]

I didn't expect her to have it down on her first dive. Not even close. Hell, I sure didn't!

But you hit the nail on the head with the comment about people literally walking on top of you. That's about what it was.

Now that's bad for the reef, and bad for the vis, but what's worse is that if you're that far off on the negative side you'll be that bad or worse on the positive side.

That changes things from an annoyance and something to work on to a truly unsafe situation where a free ascent is likely to turn into a runaway and potential injury.

As I said, she understands the issue and we'll work it together, and if this was just a matter of her "not getting it" it'd be no big deal.

What set me off was the combination of that, seeing the classes in the water and the combination of insanities displayed on those two days, PLUS her report to me that there was zero time and effort expended in either confined or open water on that skill.

As to whether to report it formally, that's up to her, not me. I'll talk with her about it. Since SSI (from their web page) appears to require HER to file the complaint (I lack standing) that is entirely in her hands, although I will bring it up.

 

[large_diver]

I'll repeat what others have already said.....mainly since your rant mode has continued to increase in volume....

What were you doing taking her to 70 feet on her first post class dive? I don't think there are too many folks who will disagree that the overall quality of dive training has been diluted.....but knowing this in advance (and you admit that you had limited if any info. on this instructor), why would you take her that deep no matter how confident you are in your skills? We all know that newbies don't have good buoyancy control (OR WE SHOULD) because we've all been there.....

I am also not sure how you managed to start blaming Halcyon for the poor state of diver training -- but I guess when your rant machine gets cranked up, you just keep throwing more and more crap into it, hoping that some logic will emerge from the resulting rant fog......

I have, over the last year on this board and elsewhere, often taken the point of view that the rants of the GUE/DIR/Halcyon folks (and people like Mike F) about the sad state of training are overblown at best and self-serving commercial pablum at worst.

Well, I've changed my tune there. Two days of diving in the same water and close proximity to these OW checkouts, with about 15 students across a half-dozen instructors, all from different shops, have permanently disabused me from that notion.

I disagree with the GUE/Halcyon/DIR prescription for a fix (and in fact argue that most manufactuers, Halcyon included, are part of the cause), but no longer do I disagree with the diagnosis of the disease.....

I will acknowledge your point about dive shops/boats needing to do a better job of policing experience/cert requirements for certain dives

 

[Lead_carrier]

Genesis once bubbled...
they just didn't execute the planned original dive (original was 20 mintues @ 60', and you can do two of those back-to-back - the problem was they spent ~25 minutes on the first dive, and then 25 on the second. By the SSI tables, you're an "E" diver after the first dive and you don't drop back down to a "D" for 57 minutes - they didn't have that SI - and to do a second 25 minute dive to 60' you must be in group "D" or lower.

So they logged the dives using the PADI tables instead, which permitted the dives.

Not exactly "falsified", but certainly done ad-hoc after the violation had taken place.

By the SSI tables, they had an omitted decompression stop and should have stayed at 15' for 10 minutes or longer.

By all means, this instructor and shop have violated a number of standards. They cannot use PADI tables, since they violated the NDL of the SSI tables they have no insurance coverage unless a report was filed with their carrier and SSI, in which case SSI will be investigating. Yes, falsified IS correct. Our logbooks are based on SSI tables, not PADI. Don't let anything happen to her logbook or the computer download. I'm sending a copy of your post and your email addy to Kirk and SSI. They have a serious problem with that shop and I believe we can nail them with this one. Keep us posted on this if you don't mind.