Of course many divers are just casual divers (like I golf) and aren't going to get much better...but...I think they should be better before they're handed a card. As it is I think many just don't have enough of a foundation to even improve unless they put in the effort on their own or find a mentor. If they had to be better to get the card in the first place it wouldn't be such a big deal if they never got better.
#$%#$%@# Dive Training!
- Thread starter Genesis
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Of course many divers are just casual divers (like I golf) and aren't going to get much better...but...I think they should be better before they're handed a card. As it is I think many just don't have enough of a foundation to even improve unless they put in the effort on their own or find a mentor. If they had to be better to get the card in the first place it wouldn't be such a big deal if they never got better.
You might try explaining the bottom times, pressure groups and repetitive dive info on those two logbook pages. Then you might try running the SSI tables, under which those dives were "planned", and tell me how, with a 42 minute surface interval, you can manage to do those two dives?
Go right ahead - explain it to me.
Oh wait - you can't - because those were PADI tables, used post-hoc AFTER the fact, when it was discovered AFTER THE FACT that the dives couldn't have been DONE on the SSI tables!
Does that make 'ya happy? Do you understand that according to the tables, you blew a decompression stop on that last certification dive, and according to the missed deco procedure ON THOSE VERY SAME SSI TABLES you were supposed to stop for TEN MINUTES at 15'? Do 'ya know that according to my g/f's gauge memory, the actual safety stop @ 15' was more like 2 minutes? Does it make you even happier to know that a fast ascent post-stop (which the log from the computer that she carried, in gauge mode, was made - its a STRAIGHT LINE - like 10 seconds, one sample period, from 15' to the surface!) makes you EVEN MORE LIKELY to suffer DCS when you blow a table like that? I was right next to you guys, and you ALL made a way-too-quick ascent from the 15' stop - I saw it.
Yes, the instructor came to my pool. Yes, that same instructor pronounced her "ready" two weeks before SHE thought she was. It was with my full support that SHE continued to work in my pool - for another TWO WEEKS - on the ability to clear her MASK, before SHE thought she was ready (and I concurred), despite pressure from the shop to "just get it done." She was ready to quit entirely due to the instructor's pressure on her! Do you know WHY? I'll tell you why - she had trouble with CHOKING during the mask clearing skill. I spent hours working with her, and she spent several tanks in my pool, working with me, getting comfortable with doing the skills that you must have if your mask gets dislodged. There are threads here on techniques to get past that mental block, and she read (and tried!) virtually all of them before the light bulb came on.
You understand what happens if you do that skill and CHOKE UNDERWATER at 57', right?
I haven't named names publically because I do genuinely like the PERSON involved.
This is about the issue of quality of training, inadequate standards and ignoring the ones that are there when they're inconvenient, NOT an individual's name.
The underlying issue is really what to do about it. Clearly, the standards that exist in "the book" aren't enough. Clearly, they're not taken seriously enough even when written down. Clearly, the people who have yelled about this (some of them DIR zealots!) for a long time have at least somewhat of a point - and perhaps a lot more than "somewhat" of a point....
I used to be one of the folks saying that there wasn't anything really wrong with training, given that there aren't divers dying like mosquitoes and biting flies in my Mosquito Magnet.
The last two months have changed my mind.
(See, I do change my opinions when I have enough evidence that points the other way!)
BTW, training here is designed to make you safe on the profiles in this area. They are all (the charter boat ones anyway) in the range of 60-80'. There is exactly one spot frequented by them (once in a while at that!) that is under 60', and that's used almost exclusively for OW checkout dives.
If you learn to dive here, you are learning to dive in real honest-to-god OW conditions with average depths of 60-80, perhaps even 90 fsw. That is what you are trained for, that is what the shops all run, none of them require AOW cards to get on their charter boats, and this is what they're selling.
Yes, that's a high bar for an OW card. But you know what? Its what's being sold, so by God, its what outta be delivered.
Both her and her daughter are doing fine, and we had a good time this weekend. Both love diving.
Both now also know what NOT to do.
Go right ahead - explain it to me.
Oh wait - you can't - because those were PADI tables, used post-hoc AFTER the fact, when it was discovered AFTER THE FACT that the dives couldn't have been DONE on the SSI tables!
Does that make 'ya happy? Do you understand that according to the tables, you blew a decompression stop on that last certification dive, and according to the missed deco procedure ON THOSE VERY SAME SSI TABLES you were supposed to stop for TEN MINUTES at 15'? Do 'ya know that according to my g/f's gauge memory, the actual safety stop @ 15' was more like 2 minutes? Does it make you even happier to know that a fast ascent post-stop (which the log from the computer that she carried, in gauge mode, was made - its a STRAIGHT LINE - like 10 seconds, one sample period, from 15' to the surface!) makes you EVEN MORE LIKELY to suffer DCS when you blow a table like that? I was right next to you guys, and you ALL made a way-too-quick ascent from the 15' stop - I saw it.
Yes, the instructor came to my pool. Yes, that same instructor pronounced her "ready" two weeks before SHE thought she was. It was with my full support that SHE continued to work in my pool - for another TWO WEEKS - on the ability to clear her MASK, before SHE thought she was ready (and I concurred), despite pressure from the shop to "just get it done." She was ready to quit entirely due to the instructor's pressure on her! Do you know WHY? I'll tell you why - she had trouble with CHOKING during the mask clearing skill. I spent hours working with her, and she spent several tanks in my pool, working with me, getting comfortable with doing the skills that you must have if your mask gets dislodged. There are threads here on techniques to get past that mental block, and she read (and tried!) virtually all of them before the light bulb came on.
You understand what happens if you do that skill and CHOKE UNDERWATER at 57', right?
I haven't named names publically because I do genuinely like the PERSON involved.
This is about the issue of quality of training, inadequate standards and ignoring the ones that are there when they're inconvenient, NOT an individual's name.
The underlying issue is really what to do about it. Clearly, the standards that exist in "the book" aren't enough. Clearly, they're not taken seriously enough even when written down. Clearly, the people who have yelled about this (some of them DIR zealots!) for a long time have at least somewhat of a point - and perhaps a lot more than "somewhat" of a point....
I used to be one of the folks saying that there wasn't anything really wrong with training, given that there aren't divers dying like mosquitoes and biting flies in my Mosquito Magnet.
The last two months have changed my mind.
(See, I do change my opinions when I have enough evidence that points the other way!)
BTW, training here is designed to make you safe on the profiles in this area. They are all (the charter boat ones anyway) in the range of 60-80'. There is exactly one spot frequented by them (once in a while at that!) that is under 60', and that's used almost exclusively for OW checkout dives.
If you learn to dive here, you are learning to dive in real honest-to-god OW conditions with average depths of 60-80, perhaps even 90 fsw. That is what you are trained for, that is what the shops all run, none of them require AOW cards to get on their charter boats, and this is what they're selling.
Yes, that's a high bar for an OW card. But you know what? Its what's being sold, so by God, its what outta be delivered.
Both her and her daughter are doing fine, and we had a good time this weekend. Both love diving.
Both now also know what NOT to do.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "objective" standards, but as a NAUI instructor, you'd have quite a lot of freedom to teach, as regards techniques and equipment. The standards are stated quite broadly and leave room for personal preference and style. Which bothers Walter, but what else is new?
Neil
First, I just noticed this thread... so I guess I will be butting in with my humble opinion...
An Instructor teaches the student diver buoyancy, I bet you that even with the best instructor in the world, the OW diver's first dive (other than the 4 OW Dives during the course), the diver barely remembers or focuses on Buoyancy...
Buoyancy, as well as other skills are gained out of experience... Critical stuff such as NEVER HOLD YOUR BREATH and Slow ascent and others are more critical for the OW diver... Buoyancy wont kill them if they mess it up and this is something that is not CRITICALLY emphasized on during OW courses...
There is a difference between RULES and SKILLS... Rules must be adhered to, skills become better with experience...
Genesis, I don't think or believe that you achieved PERFECT or even close to good Buoyancy on your first dive... unless you were able to walk and speak when you were born...
I think new divers should be cut some slack, you need to point out to your girl that she will need to work on her buoyancy skills... not that she wasn't taught well... don't blame the instructor unless he did not teach her what a BCD meant and that if she needs to go up she will have to INFLATE
ut:
Over and out...
An Instructor teaches the student diver buoyancy, I bet you that even with the best instructor in the world, the OW diver's first dive (other than the 4 OW Dives during the course), the diver barely remembers or focuses on Buoyancy...
Buoyancy, as well as other skills are gained out of experience... Critical stuff such as NEVER HOLD YOUR BREATH and Slow ascent and others are more critical for the OW diver... Buoyancy wont kill them if they mess it up and this is something that is not CRITICALLY emphasized on during OW courses...
There is a difference between RULES and SKILLS... Rules must be adhered to, skills become better with experience...
Genesis, I don't think or believe that you achieved PERFECT or even close to good Buoyancy on your first dive... unless you were able to walk and speak when you were born...
I think new divers should be cut some slack, you need to point out to your girl that she will need to work on her buoyancy skills... not that she wasn't taught well... don't blame the instructor unless he did not teach her what a BCD meant and that if she needs to go up she will have to INFLATE
ut:Over and out...
I understand your frustration and anger.
However, after reading this thread, it seems you cntradict yourself in several places.
You say that agency standards are not adequate, yet you also seem to say that the instructor for your g/f, was pushing her to OW before she had 'mastered' certain skills, namely mask clearing.
From the sounds of it, the agency had standards for mastering that skill, but the INSTRUCTOR, not agency, INSTRUCTOR, chose not to adhere to those standards.
Also, to the dive, planning, and tables. It sounds again, as if the agency has standards and procedures for planning, diving, and returning safely. Hence, they produced their tables and instructions for their use.
Again, it sounds as if the INSTRUCTOR, not agency, INSTRUCTOR, did not follow procedure or meet agancy standards.
I have read many of your postings on various threads, and while there is some of what you post that I do agree with, there is much that seems to be simple anger venting. This thread especially, and I understand the emotions involved.
At one point you say "I haven't named names publically because I do genuinely like the PERSON involved."
If you are talking about the instructor, it may be time to evaluate your priorities.
I too, 'like' many people. However, there are people I like that I would NEVER entrust with training myself or others I love with any potentially life-threatening activity.
If I am wrong, my apologies.
However, after reading this thread, it seems you cntradict yourself in several places.
You say that agency standards are not adequate, yet you also seem to say that the instructor for your g/f, was pushing her to OW before she had 'mastered' certain skills, namely mask clearing.
From the sounds of it, the agency had standards for mastering that skill, but the INSTRUCTOR, not agency, INSTRUCTOR, chose not to adhere to those standards.
Also, to the dive, planning, and tables. It sounds again, as if the agency has standards and procedures for planning, diving, and returning safely. Hence, they produced their tables and instructions for their use.
Again, it sounds as if the INSTRUCTOR, not agency, INSTRUCTOR, did not follow procedure or meet agancy standards.
I have read many of your postings on various threads, and while there is some of what you post that I do agree with, there is much that seems to be simple anger venting. This thread especially, and I understand the emotions involved.
At one point you say "I haven't named names publically because I do genuinely like the PERSON involved."
If you are talking about the instructor, it may be time to evaluate your priorities.
I too, 'like' many people. However, there are people I like that I would NEVER entrust with training myself or others I love with any potentially life-threatening activity.
If I am wrong, my apologies.
I strongly disagree with this. Buoyancy control is diving and really needs to be focused on in OW training. The lack of buoyancy control can indeed get you hurt. Poor buoyancy control can cause a loss of vis, buddy seperation, rapid ascents and environmental damage. The inability to share air, replace a mask, manage a lost fin or other minor problem midwater while maintaining position and buddy contact has contributed to accidents. If a diver can't do these things they're not diving and whoever tought them isn't teaching diving but rather just selling cards.
This BS is so deeply ingrained into the fabric of the industry that I don't know how it can ever change. It's a product of the quest for a short cheap class.
I don't know about the instructor Genesis had but I won't take a diver into OW to even begin their training dives until they are demonstrating good buoyancy control. To touch the bottom around here means a total silt-out that at the very least takes the fun out of diving and can even make it a dangerous environment to teach in. There is no excuse for the sloppy mess I see on every trip. Instructors get away with it by telling people they need to learn it with experience when in fact they should have got a handle on it in the pool.
I think new divers should be cut some slack, you need to point out to your girl that she will need to work on her buoyancy skills... not that she wasn't taught well... don't blame the instructor unless he did not teach her what a BCD meant and that if she needs to go up she will have to INFLATE
Over and out...
You're right. New divers should be cut some slack by having an instructor who knows what diving is and teaches it. I can't say whether or not she was tought well but she sure didn't learn well and it doesn't sound as though she was ready to be certified.
Unless it was a misprint you may have just proved my point by stating that you INFLATE the BC to go up.
Sorta like trying to move a 10,000 pound marshmallow. You push and push, but all that happens is you get all sticky & if you push hard enough you suffocate - and the marshmallow stays put.
However...
You get enough folks to push so that the load is spread over a large enough area, you can move that sucker.
Me & thee, Mike - that's two. All we gotta do is recruit a few hundred more.
E.
Add me to the pushing team. I agree that buoyancy AND TRIM are necessary skills every bit as much if not more than mask clearing, regulator recovery, etc. Fortunately, I was taught those things 15 years ago and will teach my students after I complete my IE.
Mike,
"Unless it was a misprint you may have just proved my point by stating that you INFLATE the BC to go up." I was trying to point out that this is something that should NOT be done...
P.S. someone mentioned MASTERING skills... I disagree, People... the point of taking OW course is for RECREATIONAL DIVING.. I also agree with PADI's definition of MASTERY LEARNING, there is a big difference between MASTERY LEARNING and MATERING something...
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you should wing through Buoyancy or any other skill... but I do believe that people MASTER SKILLS with practice, and unless the OW course costs $5000 and you are prepared to spend 3 months teaching a student how to dive, then it would not be possible... again, this is Recreational diving...
"Unless it was a misprint you may have just proved my point by stating that you INFLATE the BC to go up." I was trying to point out that this is something that should NOT be done...
P.S. someone mentioned MASTERING skills... I disagree, People... the point of taking OW course is for RECREATIONAL DIVING.. I also agree with PADI's definition of MASTERY LEARNING, there is a big difference between MASTERY LEARNING and MATERING something...
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you should wing through Buoyancy or any other skill... but I do believe that people MASTER SKILLS with practice, and unless the OW course costs $5000 and you are prepared to spend 3 months teaching a student how to dive, then it would not be possible... again, this is Recreational diving...
Genesis has kinda worked his way into two conflicting points of view.
On one hand, he thinks that standards are not high enough for OW courses and that students should demonstrate a mastery of buoyancy control ( My position is that they should demonstrate the ability to control buoyancy, but not necessarily a mastery). His stance implies that students should be denied their c-cards unless they can demonstrate HIS definition of controlled buoyancy.
On the other hand, he believes that anyone who claims that they understand the principles involved in diving nitrox should be allowed to get fills, based on their word that they know what they are doing. He considers this a conspiracy among shop owners and dive instructors to fleece the public out of their hard earned money by making them take unnecessary training.
Let me tell a story, and you decide if it fits the Genesis profile?
Let's rewind a few years to Genesis's OW training and impose the kind of metrics he is proposing for OW training. The student genesis, (in this story) is having a little trouble meeting the instructors standard for buoyancy control. The instructor pulls genesis asside and explains that he is not comfortable with his buoyancy control and that he will have to master the 2 inch above bottom for 15 minute hover skill that GWOTA (Genisis Whacked Out Training Agency) standards dictate. The instructor also tells Genesis that he is sure that he can master the skill, but that he will need a little more time in the pool to meet the standard. The instructor makes himself available to help genesis at the time of his choosing, but also adds that the pool time is not free, and that he will need to pay the shop $10 for each 2 hour pool session. The Instructor also explains that the $10 fee is exactly what the dive shop is charged for a pair of divers to use the pool, and that the shop and himself are not profiting at all from this additional pool time. After all, we just want to help you become a good diver. Genesis not wanting to take any of the blame for his inabilities, immediately gets on the internet and starts slamming all dive shops and training agencies for setting impossibly high standards for training in a conspiracy to get as much training money out of their students as possible.
Given everyone's exposure to Genisis's posts, does this sound out of character?
On one hand, he thinks that standards are not high enough for OW courses and that students should demonstrate a mastery of buoyancy control ( My position is that they should demonstrate the ability to control buoyancy, but not necessarily a mastery). His stance implies that students should be denied their c-cards unless they can demonstrate HIS definition of controlled buoyancy.
On the other hand, he believes that anyone who claims that they understand the principles involved in diving nitrox should be allowed to get fills, based on their word that they know what they are doing. He considers this a conspiracy among shop owners and dive instructors to fleece the public out of their hard earned money by making them take unnecessary training.
Let me tell a story, and you decide if it fits the Genesis profile?
Let's rewind a few years to Genesis's OW training and impose the kind of metrics he is proposing for OW training. The student genesis, (in this story) is having a little trouble meeting the instructors standard for buoyancy control. The instructor pulls genesis asside and explains that he is not comfortable with his buoyancy control and that he will have to master the 2 inch above bottom for 15 minute hover skill that GWOTA (Genisis Whacked Out Training Agency) standards dictate. The instructor also tells Genesis that he is sure that he can master the skill, but that he will need a little more time in the pool to meet the standard. The instructor makes himself available to help genesis at the time of his choosing, but also adds that the pool time is not free, and that he will need to pay the shop $10 for each 2 hour pool session. The Instructor also explains that the $10 fee is exactly what the dive shop is charged for a pair of divers to use the pool, and that the shop and himself are not profiting at all from this additional pool time. After all, we just want to help you become a good diver. Genesis not wanting to take any of the blame for his inabilities, immediately gets on the internet and starts slamming all dive shops and training agencies for setting impossibly high standards for training in a conspiracy to get as much training money out of their students as possible.
Given everyone's exposure to Genisis's posts, does this sound out of character?
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