Dive op with great rental equipment, small boats, gear storage?

[Christi]

Hector the DM at Liquid Blue shared air on a couple dives and our group was able to enjoy 70-75 minute. I saw no safety issues with this procedure.

This is NOT a slight against any dive op, particularly LB - but there are too many DM's that engage in this practice and it's not a good one! I am addressing YOUR comment that you don't see the safety issue in this, I am not bashing any specific dive op. According to your profile, you are still a pretty new diver, so from a safety and experienced standpoint the issue is that sharing air with a diver low on air:
A) leaves that air unavailable for a true emergency situation
B) leaves the DM unavailable to respond promptly and effectively to a TRUE emergency
C) If the DM DOES breakaway from the LOA diver to respond to or assist another diver having issues, the LOA diver is then left alone LOA - so now you've got multiple issues going on which can turn into a very dangerous situation very fast! A blown hose, an equipment failure, or an emergency of any type can happen to any diver at any time regardless of how much experience they have. Redundant safety equipment (secondary/octopus) is there for SAFETY and EMERGENCIES.

A DM should NEVER share air with a LOA diver simply to extend bottom time! This practice goes against all safety and training standards! My crew is specifically instructed NOT to do this. Another diver, for example the divers buddy - different scenario - but the DM is not there to share air in non-emergency situations...period!

A good DM will work with divers that are challenged with their air management and help them improve rather than give them crutches when they can clearly walk, just not to their full potential!!

Rant over Carry on

 

[cvchief]

I dunno Christi. I don't see it so cut and dried. If you want ultimate safety beyond 'don't dive' you could go with the model of dive so many minutes and end the dive. Everyone down together and everyone up together. However no one (or almost no one) wants to dive cattle boat short dives. Hence, shops engage in 'less safe' practices and allow the diver to choose the degree of safety that is an acceptable amount of safety. We all accept that diving is less safe than standing on the beach right?

Sending divers up individually has its risks. The boat might miss them. They might blow their safety stop, etc etc. Do they deploy their own SMB? Can they? I would assume many of the first up are the least experienced.

If an OP shares air, then can set rules to begin sharing well before a true low on air. Say first to 800 or something. Surely switching back and forth between DM Octo and their own shouldn't be more difficult than going up individually?

Heck, when was the last time you heard of a sharing the DM octo problem? I HAVE heard of individual divers left floating for a bit because of leaving the DM. Still I don't see either as unacceptable risks, just different ways of doing things, both with more risk than a short timed dive.

You make a good point about air consumption and improvement though. I remember the shame of being first on the boat. It encouraged me to work on my air consumption big time. Now I am better, but I do miss all that extra time to tell lies with Carlos!

 

[Skittl1321]

For me, I wouldn't want an op that shared air because I know that if I was the diver needing the air (and I'm not really sure if I would be or not. I'm small with small lungs, but I'm also a nervous rapid breather, so I don't know what to expect in Cozumel) because 1) I've never breathed really comfortably off an octo, they always leak just a bit and it freaks me out; I'm good with swimming on someone's long hose if they use a necklace secondary though; 2) if there was an emergency and the DM had to respond, I worry that the time it would take me to respond by getting off his/her octo back to my own air (because I know they share at low on air, not OOA) would effect their ability to promptly respond to the emergency. I assume this happens extremely rarely, but still for me, it wasn't ideal.

As Christi points out, having a buddy do it rather than the DM does remove the second issue, so it does seem better, but you'd have to have a buddy with much better air consumption than you have. As long as the octos were really well maintained, that does sound better than going up individually (and I assume individually means in buddy pairs? People aren't going up just on their own, are they?)

 

[cvchief]

but I'm also a nervous rapid breather, so I don't know what to expect in Cozumel) because

Ok that happens. Easiest thing to fix. You just need to practice relaxing. I will speak to you only in my Jamaican accent on the boat to help with that. You girl relax and take in all Ja gave us. Respect!

1) I've never breathed really comfortably off an octo, they always leak just a bit and it freaks me out; )

Er.... Yikes.... Your octo leaks? Rental? Bad sized mouth piece or something. Weird.... So the take the reg out and smile pic of you are right out?

 

[Mossman]

I dunno Christi. I don't see it so cut and dried. If you want ultimate safety beyond 'don't dive' you could go with the model of dive so many minutes and end the dive. Everyone down together and everyone up together. However no one (or almost no one) wants to dive cattle boat short dives. Hence, shops engage in 'less safe' practices and allow the diver to choose the degree of safety that is an acceptable amount of safety. We all accept that diving is less safe than standing on the beach right?

Sending divers up individually has its risks. The boat might miss them. They might blow their safety stop, etc etc. Do they deploy their own SMB? Can they? I would assume many of the first up are the least experienced.

If an OP shares air, then can set rules to begin sharing well before a true low on air. Say first to 800 or something. Surely switching back and forth between DM Octo and their own shouldn't be more difficult than going up individually?

Heck, when was the last time you heard of a sharing the DM octo problem? I HAVE heard of individual divers left floating for a bit because of leaving the DM. Still I don't see either as unacceptable risks, just different ways of doing things, both with more risk than a short timed dive.

You make a good point about air consumption and improvement though. I remember the shame of being first on the boat. It encouraged me to work on my air consumption big time. Now I am better, but I do miss all that extra time to tell lies with Carlos!

Actually, standing on the beach subjects one to carcinogenic UV rays and dengue-carrying mosquitos.

Besides the good reasons listed by Christi, the reg swap itself may be problematic. Sure, divers are trained to share air and retrieve a lost regulator, but that usually occurs in a safe pool setting at 10 feet of depth under the supervision of an instructor. As you noted, many LOA divers may be inexperienced. Perhaps the only other time they took their reg out of their mouth underwater was when getting certified. Any time a diver removes the reg from his or her mouth, it opens up the potential for inhaling water and drowning or causing a panic attack and a resulting breath-hold rapid ascent causing embolism and/or DCS. Because the air sharing is done at deeper depths than 15', I believe the risks are much greater than anything that could happen at 15' (you mentioned blowing off a safety stop, big deal) or on the surface. In my opinion, the only time a diver should voluntarily remove the reg is during a real emergency, or at least a good photo op.

Sure, no one has yet been reported to have been injured or killed from the practice and I suspect that the dive ops who do this will continue to do it until there's an accident, but I'm with Christi on this one.

 

[Christi]

in re a bad octo:

This is one of the bad choice/decision/purchases many people make IMO! They will buy the cheapest Octo they can get - when REALLY, it should be something reliable and better than the bottom of the barrel octo - think about the fact that more likely than not, YOU will end up being the one breathing from your octo in an emergency/panicked diver situation, etc.

My octo happens to be the exact same thing as my primary, a Scubapro S600 - which I wear as a necklace

Just some food for thought

 

[Mossman]

(and I assume individually means in buddy pairs? People aren't going up just on their own, are they?)

Not all divers dive in buddy pairs. If I'm LOA before the rest of the group, I let my DM know and I ascend after he sends up his SMB. But inexperienced divers with less self-sufficiency are highly recommended to stay with a buddy.

 

[Skittl1321]

Er.... Yikes.... Your octo leaks? Rental? Bad sized mouth piece or something. Weird.... So the take the reg out and smile pic of you are right out?

Well, I don't have an octo. I've only used rentals. In cert training, I breathed off 6 different octos- 3 of them let water in, one to the extent that I couldn't ever get a breath an panicked. It was right side up, though supposedly these are the kind that can be upside down and still work, but the instructor checked that one and told me it was bad. The others I just kind of took itty bitty breaths until I could surface, assuming octos did that.

As for reg out and smile- I do reg in/out drills every dive just to be used to having it out of my mouth, but I like my air in my mouth. No smiling from me. (Maybe I need to add taking my buddy's octo to my safety stop practice list -generally I just do a mask flood. I mean, I've got 3 minutes to kill.) But I won't dive again until Cozumel anyway.

 

[cvchief]

Actually, standing on the beach subjects one to carcinogenic UV rays and dengue-carrying mosquitos.

Actually dengue mossies are pretty highly unlikely on the beach. That particular mosquito is not up to beach living generally. WAY more likely in your shower.

Besides the good reasons listed by Christi, the reg swap itself may be problematic. Sure, divers are trained to share air and retrieve a lost regulator, but that usually occurs in a safe pool setting at 10 feet of depth under the supervision of an instructor. As you noted, many LOA divers may be inexperienced. Perhaps the only other time they took their reg out of their mouth underwater was when getting certified. Any time a diver removes the reg from his or her mouth, it opens up the potential for inhaling water and drowning or causing a panic attack and a resulting breath-hold rapid ascent causing embolism and/or DCS. Because the air sharing is done at deeper depths than 15', I believe the risks are much greater than anything that could happen at 15' (you mentioned blowing off a safety stop, big deal) or on the surface. In my opinion, the only time a diver should voluntarily remove the reg is during a real emergency, or at least a good photo op.

Sure, no one has yet been reported to have been injured or killed from the practice and I suspect that the dive ops who do this will continue to do it until there's an accident, but I'm with Christi on this one.

Ok, so changing regs with the DM RIGHT THERE with you is more dangerous than ascending alone? My op doesn't do it this way but plenty wave goodbye and send divers up. You don't see that as more risky? I mean in degrees, I would accept either, but to say splitting the group and sending people up on their own is so much safer than sharing air is a bridge too far.

I know of a diver with another op that surfaces on his own in September and was left floating alone. Is that a risk? I think so. How can one DM guarantee safety for divers on the bottom and divers on the surface? If a diver suffers a problem at the surface, how long will the DM take, if he sees, to swim up there? Now if there is a problem in the group, I bet a DM sharing an Octo could grab the guy, shove the guys Octo back in his mouth and get to another diver in the group just as fast as the DM swimming to the surface. Again though I would accept that risk. I think both add risk and you have to choose.

So maybe share air adds 20% more risk and divers ascending alone adds 19% more risk or the reverse ? I personally think the idea of the DM sharing the air is probably safer, if the right parameters are set, since the chicks stay together. However, I like diving my tank and let divers go up when they have finished their tank. I choose to dive that way.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be against sneaking up on someone and stealing a few breaths off their octo to stretch my dive, but only if no one saw me. I would NOT want to be the guy hanging out on the DM's 'Octo of Shame' in front of everyone. I would rather sit on the boat, alone in my shame....

 

[Skittl1321]

YOU will end up being the one breathing from your octo in an emergency/panicked diver situation, etc.

It would be nice if in training they just had the buddy take from your mouth and then have you grab your own octo. That way you are used to that being the emergency procedure. Because it does seem like that is way more likely to happen.