Dive incident in Cozumel March 27, 2015

[lowviz]

I'd use an AED in a heartbeat on a wet boat if someone needed it.

Background: The US grounds one leg of a transformer and calls it "Neutral". This means that the "Hot" lead is guaranteed to be dangerous with respect to ground. The UK and several other countries isolate (float) both lines of the transformer from ground, thus either (or neither) may or may not be dangerous with respect to ground.

An AED is not grounded. The shock potential is developed between the two leads, furthermore the AED has to sense an arrhythmia to fire. If it is shorted out you get no shock.

25 V RMS (35 V peak) is safe. Extra-low voltage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you want more go with OSHA: https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=9871&p_table=standards

Repeat: I wouldn't hesitate to use an AED in a wet environment if someone needed it, but I'd do a really good "CLEAR!".

---------- Post added March 30th, 2015 at 04:41 PM ----------

Just to make sure that everyone is on the same page, an AED was never designed to re-start your heart. Its only function is to STOP your heart. http://www.heart.org/idc/groups/heart-public/@wcm/@hcm/documents/downloadable/ucm_300340.pdf

 

[bilsant]

What he said about clear. I get tingly enough as it is.

But there's no reason not to use one.

Ultimately I suspect the market will resolve the AED question as informed divers factor it in as expected safety equipment on board when choosing a boat, along with commercial liability insurers figuring out they can charge more if one isn't present.. Not yet? Give it time...though it may show up as a rate discount for those who have one. Maybe even the Coast Guard will chime in on commercial passenger vessel requirements someday. And of course like all technology, the price will come down in time...

As to the discussion about not expecting an AED on a hiking trail....apples and oranges because of portability differences in a boat vs a backpack. Let's take that variable out and ask a different way. If you were on a group hike with some older folks, would you think it a good idea to bring an AED along if it weighed 4 ounces?

 

[DandyDon]

As to the discussion about not expecting an AED on a hiking trail....apples and oranges because of portability differences in a boat vs a backpack. Let's take that variable out and ask a different way. If you were on a group hike with some older folks, would you think it a good idea to bring an AED along it weighed 4 ounces?

I am the older folk. My backpack usually carries 16 pounds of water in vacuum bottles, a 4 ounce PLB, a spare camera, etc. What is this 4 ounce AED?

Eh, I can't get anyone else to show an interest in how to use the PLB, so I doubt they'd learn how to use an AED.

I spend more time in the wild at hiking & farming than I do diving, but I don't expect an AED for miles. I keep my cell charged and my PLB handy. Beyond that, we all gotta go sometime. It beats sitting on the porch all day so I can die later. I hope the widow of this poor lady does not regret their going.

 

[lowviz]

Don, using an AED is truly a total no brainer. Every two years I take the full deal from the American Red Cross. See pic.



The first time was a stitch. I made it clear to the instructor that I wanted to learn how to operate an AED. She smiled and assured me that I would become proficient at this. Great. Day passes, 15 minutes left to class and I ask if we are going to EVER going to learn how to use an AED. Yep, almost there.

We get to it:

Open the box, push the button, and do what it tells you to do.

Seriously, the biggest issue is dealing with chest hair...

 

[bilsant]

OK....Don's logic has beaten me down.

I'll concede carrying an AED in the woods when you're all alone might be counterproductive.


Again, apples and oranges....

 

[Kmart4321]

I'll make that argument. Fewer than 5% of SCA victims survive with CPR alone. That figure increases to 85% if an AED is available and used. Hiking trails? Ok, I don't expect them on hiking trails, but I expect them on boats as often as I expect oxygen on boats, in fact, an AED is far more useful than a bottle of O2 IMHO.

I dont know if those are the accurate numbers but they certainly is overwhelming medical evidence to support an AED being everywhere.
Cpr and AED are both Class 1 treatments according to latest research.
Class 1 treatment is known to have positive impact and beneficial to pt outcome.
Class 2 may be beneficial, not enough research to confirm
Class 3 is shown to be harmful and should not be attempted .

ACLS is all built around good BLS. Hard fast deep compressions to keep brain and myocardium prefused to increase success of defibrillation [emoji603]

 

[kwinter]

Interesting question. I found this...

The safe use of automated external defibrillators in a wet environment.

Lyster T1, Jorgenson D, Morgan C.
Author information



Abstract

There has been concern regarding potential shock hazards for rescuers or bystanders when a defibrillator is used in a wet environment and the recommended safety procedure, moving the patient to a dry area, is not followed.
OBJECTIVE:

To measure the electrical potentials associated with the use of an automated external defibrillator (AED) in a realistically modeled wet environment.
METHODS:

A raw processed turkey was used as a patient surrogate. The turkey was placed on a cement floor while pool water was applied to the surrounding area. To simulate a rescuer or bystander in the vicinity of a patient, a custom sense probe was constructed. Defibrillation shocks were delivered to the turkey and the probe was used to measure the voltage an operator/bystander would receive at different points surrounding the surrogate. The test was repeated with salt water.
RESULTS:

The maximum voltage occurred approximately 15 cm from the simulated patient and measured 14 V peak (current 14 mA peak) in the case of pool water, and 30 V peak (current 30 mA peak) in the case of salt water.
CONCLUSIONS:

Thirty volts may result in some minor sensation by the operator or bystander, but is considered unlikely to be hazardous under these circumstances. The maximum currents were lower than allowed by safety standards. Although defibrillation in a wet environment is not recommended practice, our simulation of a patient and a rescuer/bystander in a wet environment did not show significant risk should circumstances demand it.

Good to know. I hereby withdraw my objection and would not hesitate to use one.

 

[Kmart4321]

Good to know. I hereby withdraw my objection and would not hesitate to use one.

Fyi, I was leaning on a stretcher attempting to intubate once when an overzealous partner lit the pt up once back in the old days of stacked monophasic shocks. 360 J zipped through him (and me to a lesser degree) with no lasting ill effects that I know of......although I do tend to twitch when the microwave starts[emoji12]

 

[MMM]

My question wasn't about the safety of their usage on a boat...more about their durability in corrosive conditions. Anyone with experience in this area?

 

[lowviz]

An AED comes in a box. You can pick the box to suit your intended use: Marine Automated External Defibrillator (AED) > Lifeforce AED > Martek Marine >