dive computers vs dive tables vs WKPP practices

[cdennyb]

OK, FIRST THE WARNING. Please don't allow your personal predjuices cloud your thought processes on this one. If I offend anyone please understand this is a general question. Now...on with the show.

I have compared the US Navy dive tables with similuated dives to various deep depths and worked out the decompression stops etc. Then... I went to the latest software programs to help the deep diving (Techincal, Wreck, and Cave divers) groups determine a safe and efficient assent from depth. (Using V-Planner, GAP, etc.) What I have found is quite a discrepency in the overall times. The George Irvine group (and followers of his groups dive tables) from WKPP make numerous dives to incredible depths for unheard of times and have virtually no hits that require hospitalization. If I were to follow the US Navy tables, according to the simulated dives I made, it'd take hours & hours to come up vs a couple hundred minutes. I think the US Navy tables will soon become an antique way of determining assents since technology and experience is pushing the 'envelope' of what we used to know.

Any thoughts on the subject?
I'm curious if anyone else has come up with the same results as I have.

:sharky:

 

[BigJetDriver]

:wacko: NOW HEAR THIS! NOW HEAR THIS!
TROLL SIGHTED ON THE PORT BOW! ALL HANDS TO BATTLE STATIONS! DIVE THE BOAT! I SAY AGAIN, DIVE THE BOAT! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

THAT IS ALL!:mgun:

 

[mgri]

Troll or not it's probably an accurate observation.

Would it help if he replaced WKPP with modern tech diving, so it wouldn't be as flammable.

 

[BigJetDriver]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...
:wacko: NOW HEAR THIS! NOW HEAR THIS!
TROLL SIGHTED ON THE PORT BOW! ALL HANDS TO BATTLE STATIONS! DIVE THE BOAT! I SAY AGAIN, DIVE THE BOAT! THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

THAT IS ALL!:mgun:

:wacko: Sometimes, even when ya warn 'em that they is piranas and trolls in them waters, they still caint hep themselves and they dives in!:huh:

 

[BRW]

DennyB is right on about WKPP. A standard WKPP
dive to 300 fsw for 5 hrs requires 20 hrs of Haldane
deco. RGBM requires 12 hrs. And WKPP does the dive
with 12 hrs deco. Irvine, Jablonski, and Mees have clocked
and recorded it. My hat goes off to them for their
exploits. Plus the balls to experimentally arrive at such
profiles by systematic application of deep stops and
shallow deco time shaving WELL before RGBGM came online
in the tec arena. Their website (search GUE) contains a
wealth of info and history -- do check it out.

See profiles and details in RGBM IN Depth too -- yeh, again.
The profiles are part of the RGBM Data Bank (wider
tech extension of PDE)

Incredible dives, and divers. And here's were we see the
veracity of modern deco technology and staging regimens
blowing the old stuff out the door.

Ellyat in the North Sea made two 520 fsw dive on the Baden
using RGBM, and knocked 3 hours off his deco time. See
DiverNet.com for an extended description.

Bruce Wienke
Program Manager Computational Physics
C & C Dive Team Ldr

 

[MonkSeal]

BRW,

I must admit I haven't finished reading "RGBM in depth" but I noticed that new NAUI tables are pretty liberal for repetitive dives.

E.g.

Dive one 16 min @ 110 fsw followed by 1 hour of SIT followed by dive two 40 min @ 70 fsw

Something like this can't be done by old tables.

I also made few dives planned with GAP (RGBM) and noticed similar thing: deco for 1st dive was little bit longer then if LZH was used but 2nd seemed pretty liberal. I made planned dives and noticed no problems at all.

Is this observation OK ? Can you give some more explanation ?

P.S. I promise I'll finish the book

 

[BRW]

MonkSeal,

New NAUI rec tables are NOT liberal when you add in required
deep safety stop at 1/2 bottom depth, plus 2 minutes in 15 fsw
zone. And when you note the all dives must be shallower.
And that last dive is in 30 fsw zone.

They are safer, saner, and based on a more complete picture
of deco, gas transfer, and coupled data.

You also cannot really compare them to the old Haldane
stuff -- apples to oranges.

On the Tec RGBM Tables with deco, they always beat
ZHL on deco time (shorter) with margins increasing as depth
and time increase. If not, suggest you check with Kees so
as to compare apples to apples. And all of the above same
said. RGBM is generally never more conservative than Haldane
deco for same levels of confidence and field testing.

Thanks,

Bruce Wienke
Program Manager Computational Physics
C & C Dive Team ldr

 

[BigJetDriver]

BRW once bubbled...
...A standard WKPP
dive to 300 fsw for 5 hrs requires 20 hrs of Haldane
deco. RGBM requires 12 hrs. And WKPP does the dive
with 12 hrs deco. Irvine, Jablonski, and Mees have clocked
and recorded it. My hat goes off to them for their
exploits...

I cannot disagree with Dr. Wienke, nor would I wish to, when it comes to diving practices and procedures. Having read and studied his work as much as I can (not being a mathematician or physicist), I am a willing follower of his.

I cannot find it in my heart, however, to applaud George Irvine. This reaction is not because I do not believe that George has performed some amazing feats of diving performance. My problem is not with George the Diver, but with George the Social Animal, or perhaps better yet, George the Anti-Social Animal.

The idea that intelligent people can engage in spirited discussion in defense of their ideas using educated language and polite phrases is one that is common to civilized societies. This, however, would have to be the lesson that George Irvine III skipped in school somewhere. While he can be quite pleasant in person, and can manage to make reasonable and informative presentations in public, as soon as he gets near an Internet keyboard, the psychopath in him comes to the fore.

His public posts in the case of divers who have died have been insulting, vitriolic, harmful in the extreme, and hurtful to the friends and loved ones of the deceased.

Even George's friends admit that they wish they could keep him away from a keyboard. His diving exploits entitle him to opine about diving and its practice. Nothing, however,.....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...entitles him, or anyone for that matter, to spew the kind of sociopathic hate speech that he vomits forth. While we expect such venom and drivel from racists and terrorists, it is ultimately much more shocking when foaming and frothing from the mouth of someone in George's position.

We are trying to make it plain that hate speech is not an acceptable form of expression in this land of ours. I, for one, among many, wish to Heaven that someone could make that plain to GI3.
:box:

 

[BRW]

BJ69,

Whew.

Surprised by your post. And your earlier personal email
chastising my support for WKPP and especially George Irvine.

Suggest both are out of line here. And irrelevant to any
discussions at hand.

But since you did call me out, permit me a quick reply.

WKPP and George Irvine have made notable contributions
to diving technology. They stand tall, worthy, and recorded.

And are part of an evolution to revolution in diving.

Your comments are none of the above. Nor were your
earlier postings about WKPP and Irvine.

But with regards to the fabric of the matter in your Irvine
diatribe, many of us have seen the hot exchange of emails
you are referencing. There are TWO sides to that exchange,
and neither are important here (and I know the combatants
and their history of diving urban warfare).

Petty dislikes do not detract from the accomplishments
of WKPP and Irvine. And WKPP and Irvine know it.

So do most.

Best regards,

Bruce Wienke
Program Manager Computational Physics
C & C Dive Team Ldr

 

[BigJetDriver]

BRW once bubbled...

(1)...Surprised by your post. And your earlier personal email
chastising my support for WKPP and especially George Irvine.

(2) But since you did call me out, permit me a quick reply.

(3) WKPP and George Irvine have made notable contributions
to diving technology. They stand tall, worthy, and recorded.
And are part of an evolution to revolution in diving....
[/B]

Dr. Wienke, et al,

If I may, I will deal with paragraph (2) first. I am in no way "calling you out" Dr. Wienke. I can only say again that I am a supporter and follower of yours. After much study I have become convinced that your RGBM is absolutely THE best decompression program available today, and have argued as such in other forums. In my private post to you I made mention that your book, "Technical Diving in Depth", autographed by yourself, holds an honored place on my bookshelf. I often quote from it, since I consider you to be one of the premiere authorities on the subject. So, no, I am not in any way "calling you out".

As for paragraph (1), in my private post to you I am sorry if you felt I was chastising you, since my words were meant as an appeal for your aid.

What I have noted is that there is a distinct tendency in this modern America of ours to allow what should be polite discussion and argument, even on scholarly levels, to sink down into the realm of bar-room shouting matches and "smack talk".---(No, Dr. Wienke, I do not believe that you do this.)---In my own small way, I am trying to reverse this process, at least on this board.

As for paragraph (3), I can only say that I whole-heartedly agree! There can be absolutely no doubt,when it comes to the diving world, that George Irvine, and all of the folks at WKPP, such as Main, Stone, Mees, Jablonski, et al, stand among that small group of true pioneers who have made, as you say, a revolutionary difference in our understanding of the underwater world. I salute him, and them all for it.

So it evokes an even greater sadness when I note George sinking into that bar-room "smack talk" mode. A man with his record of accomplishments does not need to do this. Certainly, a man in his position of responsibility, should NOT do this.

I must point out here, that the contention that his remarks are only written in the context of e-mail combat between two antagonists is not correct. His posts concerning the accidental deaths of several divers have, in fact, been nothing more than an insulting diatribe directed at the deceased.

My message here is quite simple. A man with the noted and hard-earned accomplishments of Mr. Irvine should not NEED to debase himself in such a manner. Certainly, a man in his position of responsibility and authority should NOT and MUST NOT do this.

I thank you for your attention to this matter, and I remain, sir, your devoted follower.

Respectfully,

Rob Davie