Dive Computers & O/W

[DivingGal]

From the previous thread:

The computer makes the most difference by far out of all the different peices of gear you can choose from. The comp takes the guess work and the errors in judgement when it comes to calculating bottom times and maximum depth limits encountered in diving. The computer doesn't make mistakes, humans do.
Mario S Caner

And

I strongly feel that a computer should be purchased as soon as possible. Especially air intergrated models since they calculate air time left on workrate and eliminate human error during the dive planning stage. Eliminating Human error at the dive planningstage reduces the chances of an emergency or "worse" occuring.
Aegir

By no means do I say computers are not a benefit to divers who use them, they are an extremely useful tool which can provide all sorts of assistance to the diver. But as Gozmutti expressed so eloquently

Personally, I would not want to dive without knowing how to use the tables, because anything can happen to a computer...damage, loss etc.

I've seen it happen where a computer has failed, and the diver had no clue how to calc their timing or PG.

PS I have a computer, and love it. It does make my life easier. It just wasn't one of my first purchases.

 

[turnerjd]

Originally posted by DivingGal

By no means do I say computers are not a benefit to divers who use them, they are an extremely useful tool which can provide all sorts of assistance to the diver. [/B]

That just about summs it up for me. Computers are a tool. Before you can use a tool you have to have a certain level of knowledge as to how and why things work.

Its's this basic knowledge that allows us to use these tools safely that is missing.

Jon T

 

[Mario S Caner]

I've got a different opinion here. There is an agency now that when combined has become the second fastest growing in the world. TDI & SDI. SDI has different training requirements than say PADI, in that they teach the dive tables as part of the 'history of diving' part of the course. So in essence are dive tables taught? Yes and No. Do you need to know how one works in order to 'have' to dive? No. Should you know how one works? Yes, you should have an idea of how they work, but by no means do you need to be thinking of them all too much.

An SDI course makes computer use mandatory. The purchase of the computer is highly recommended as it is covered in depth by the instructor. I see no problem with this policy as I recognise that it is in fact the future. On a personal note, I cover the tables perhaps more in depth than most instructors out there just because it makes me feel better. I've never had a student marginally pass the tables questions in a PADI course. I handle all my students in much the same way in the classroom, making sure they understand thoroughly.

Let's face it folks diving is a potentially hazardous activity, regardless of how much it is advertised as being statistically safer than bowling. The demographics of divers across the board show a certain pattern of the average diver's spending habit's traveling habit's etc. and their income is included in that demographic. The average potential diver which is the target here, can afford the computer, in fact they can afford two. The second one being a less expensive stripped down version of the primary. Is $150-200 really too much money to be spent for a redundant peice of gear that helps you dive safer?

Every Instructor here has most likely gasped at one point or another while reading this. Though I'm not a 100%(I'm close though) I still agree that tables are slowly on their way out. That is evident when you observe divers gearing up on a boat and the DM tells them about the particular site they are on top of. You don't see divers pulling out their tables, you see them looking at their pprofiles on their computers. What good is knowing you have 20 minutes of NDL time at 100ft, if you know for a fact that you will be doing a multilevel dive on a wreck? Nothing, that's what. When a diver emerges from the first dive, grabs some soup lies about the size of the shark they just saw and gets ready to suit back up for another dive, the computer doesn't make any errors in the amount of bottom time they have for the next dive. That's when people screw up. The computer takes the careless mistakes out of the equation.

 

[Warhammer]

My instructor was right opposite. He never once went over the use of computers, they were mentioned but not used. He did carry one on our OW dives, but the class had only analog gauges. His reason for this, so he said, was that he wanted us to master the tables first, then move on to computers. Even offered to provide free instruction, if needed, on computer use when we purchased one, from him of course.

As far as the test goes, we had a little unsuspected surprise at the end of the checkout dives. Before we got off the boat he asked us all to meet him back at the hotel after lunch. Upon meeting him, he passed out another test, and guess what was on it. All the questions that were missed, didn't matter who missed them, if it was missed it was on this test. In order to get certified we had answer those questions again. If anyone missed them, we had to discuss the question throughly as a class and provide the correct answer and why it was the correct answer.

 

[Iguana Don]

Mario,
I am not discounting the use of computers in O/W diving. I am advocating not using them until you have mastered the tables.
We all agree that computers in diving are the future. But you need to know the basics of diving before using one. How do you know if it's working or not.

Let's take the simple four function calculator for example: you have to know how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide in order to use it. How do you know if it's correct or not. The can & do make errors. I'm sure dive computers are no different.

How does an individual make an informed decision as to which computer to use if they can't use the tables to compare it to.

At the stages in their diving careers they are buying computers, they can't even make an informed decision. They have no idea of the different tables that the computer is based on. Sure you can go on recomendations, but you and I know that isn't always the way to go. I am learning still.

It was decided several months back that the instructors on this board are above the norm and masters of their craft. No matter which agency you are from. These are not the ones in question.

IMHO I think it would be better if O/W divers waited until they have made 30-40 dives on tables before purchasing a computer.

Personally I don't think wearing an extra computer is the answer, but then again you & I don't always see eye to eye on every topic.

Brothers usually don't

Don

Another vote for spell check

 

[o2diver]

Ok everyone, how many carry tables while doing the dive??
I don't think many do. Trying to figure out the tables at depth is not an easy task and since most dives are not a straight profile trying to use just tables is not a very safe option. With more students running out and buying computers after the OW, I think that it is safer to train them in the proper use in the begining. I do agree that tables should be taught but how many are going to remember the NDL's when they are in the water. The diver still needs a timing device so why not a computer.

Just my 2 cents
o2diver

 

[Warhammer]

Come on Don, you know that isn't realistic. Sure, I'm sure there are a great # of divers that have/will have that many and more dives before using a computer, but it doesn't take that many dives to master the tables. Heck, technically, you can start a DM course with just 20 dives under your belt with PADI. The truth is the tables can be mastered without ever doing a dive. Our OW class did just that. Could we call out the NDLs from memory? No, but we could all use the tables to figure any given profile that was within them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for mastering any and all skills, including tables, before moving on to something new. But 30 or 40 dives before using a computer?

 

[Dstang65]

Well just as proof of agency reluctance to switch to computers or at least instructor reluctance, my YMCA/NAUI program treat computers with great disdain, none of the students that dive are to use computers on checkout dives. When I ask about info relating to computers, they are fully willing to assist in training me for free on any model that I buy, but recommend that I not do so until I reach my full advanced cert and about 40-50 dives. I'm gonna listen. They are pretty hardcore as far as divers go, not to mention cave maniacs. Eventually however I will switch to computer. Oceanic or Uwatec? Due to the amount of flexibility they will provide in my diving and to rule out that human error factor that Mario Caner talks about.


Dan
Gator Diver, Mustang man

 

[scubabunny]

At the dive shop I work, computers are loaned to students for one day, in Advanced O/W, but not O/W. I think this makes more sense than giving such a high cost item to someone who has NO real concept of deco limits or bottom time, not to mention bouyancy control. I am one of the divers that went straight from my O/W to using a computer (a "hand me down" from my Instructor/Boyfriend). Well, maybe I should say I "had" a computer...but I didn't really "use" it. He still made me plan my dives and pretty much dive my plan. (Good lord! I've been working in a dive shop entirely tooooo long!)

Ok...to my question. I was trained on the wheel. I was not really introduced to the tables until I took Nitrox. Is there any reason why tables are the more popular, besides the fact that they cost 1/3 as much as the wheels? Personally, I prefer using the wheel, as I mainly stick to multilevel shore dives. Can you plan multilevel dives on the table? I never thought to ask until now.

 

[Warhammer]

I think you're missing something. When using tables for dive planning, that's exactly what you do, plan the dives, dive the plan. You don't wait until your in the dive to consult the tables at depth, you do that on the surface before doing the dive. It isn't hard to remember you have x # of minutes at x depth, if it is then write it down. Same goes for starting and ending times. But you are correct that the majority of dives aren't on a square profile. Multilevel dives aren't possible using standard tables, but they are possible using a wheel. But it isn't anywhere near as easy as a computer. But still, I think every diver should be familiar with all 3. One reason is so you have a general idea of how long you have and are more likely to spot suspicous computer indications. Another one being that in case of a dead computer you have an alternative. For instance say you just left port on a $3000 liveaboard trip, and upon your gearing up for the first dive you find your computer DOA. You wouldn't want to have to scrap the trip because you didn't know how to work the tables, would you? True, Mario's suggestion of redundancy, would be the better option in that situation or if the computer died in the middle of your trip, in which case tables would be useless for 24 hours. But the tables beat nothing and I for one just can't justify spending an extra $600 just to have 2 computers of the same programming.

Personnaly I carry 3 sets of tables with me on every trip. I have the PADI RDP, the NAUI wheel, and the YMCA tables. However the YMCA tables are now the only ones that go with me on the dive, that's because of their conservatism and the fact that they have a decompression table, just in case. But you can't use both a computer and tables, unless you dive the tables and negate the benefit of the computer. So maybe I'm just a tad paranoid in that respect.