Dive Agencies Pros and Cons

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Any instructor can be lazy and teach the bare minimum of the course they're allowed. These are the people to avoid. Anyone have decent or motivated will provide far more than the minimum no matter what agency they teach for.

 

[Walter]

I know in the NAUI Scuba Diver book, and on the presentation that I give reverse block is taught, as well as air contamination. Now, is it required as per standards?

My copies of NAUI and PADI standards are several years old, so I'm sure there have been a few minor changes. It was not required when my copy was published. I'd be interested in what you discover.

I think one of the biggest advantages of SEI and NAUI is the accademic freedom to exceed standards that we have.

I agree with you. I would never teach for an agency that didn't have such a policy.

True, with a skin dive optional.

Optional is not required. This is only about what is required. Everything not specifically required or prohibited is optional.

Not on the surface, but mask removal, replacement and clear are required underwater.

True. I was in a hurry when I added in SEI's underwater requirement, I should not have listed that since all three require that skill. Sorry.

Typo meaning SEI?

Yes, that was a typo. Thanks for pointing it out.

Or underwater, it's up to the instructor, I teach it underwater and surface.

Did I miss that option? Where is that in the standards?

During open water sessions or in the class room?

Open water.

While not required, it can be spoken about in class. It is not on the written test.

You can talk about anything in class.

Again, "required" may be a little misleading.

No, "required" is not misleading. What is misleading is throwing in optional or even recommended when requirements are being discussed.

Underwater communications is covered in the class room and in the confined/open water sessions. During pool and open water, it is not an area that can be used for denying a certification for.

Underwater communications are required in PADI's classroom and in confined water. Except for signaling ascents and descents, they are not required in open water. NAUI and SEI instructors can deny certification if the student is unable or unwilling to communicate underwater during their check out dives.

I would guess that as a new potential diver, looking to pick the right agency...do they use the minimum standards as the criteria, or do they use the instructor??

If you're looking to find the right agency, you need to look at the minimums. If you're looking for the best class, you need to go into more detail with the individual instructors. Most potential divers ask only about price.

Any instructor can be lazy and teach the bare minimum of the course they're allowed. These are the people to avoid. Anyone have decent or motivated will provide far more than the minimum no matter what agency they teach for.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, most instructors I've observed teach standards to the letter. PADI encourages them to do so. NAUI and SEI encourage instructors to exceed the printed standards.

 

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Also, I think one of the biggest advantages of SEI and NAUI is the accademic freedom to exceed standards that we have.

Its one of the things im very dubious about. I've seen instructors adding in completely worthless extras to courses just to "make it harder". Things that don't benefit the student in the slightest but just in there because it can. Examples include making them swim lengths of the pool carrying weights, timed exercises to put kit on underwater, minimum depth freediving and other things.
I much prefer the other idea of you aren't allowed to pass/fail on added material but can add material as an information source informally - it tends to stop rogue/military style or just vindictive instructors.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, most instructors I've observed teach standards to the letter. PADI encourages them to do so.

You can teach standards to the letter and then add as much as you want provided its not used as pass/fail under padi. And nowhere at all does it recommend against doing this. You've got as much freedom there to add anything you think useful as you have anywhere else. The agency doesnt specify, the only thing that prevents it happening is usually instructor and/or shop laziness.

..and most divers are only interesting in 2 things:- price and how quick.

 

[BekaLynn]

As a newly certified diver I have come to the conclusion that yes everyone is right... it's not really the agency but the instructor that makes a difference. I chose the agency based on the fact that my buddy was already certified via that agency. I chose the instructor based on location of the LDS that was that agencies instructor. (they were close to where I lived)

Now that being said... I would choose differently now that I am certified and have gone to another shop and spent considerable time with another instructor. He is fantastic, takes time to ask me questions, gives me real advice on how to successfully complete a skill, or task. I will be taking my future classes with him.

My point? Take your time when choosing your instructor. And choose the INSTRUCTOR not the agency. I met the instructor at the shop I chose... and liked her... then when I went to class it was a different instructor... and then I ended up with a total of 4 different instructors. I was told this was normal... ok. It was difficult for me, I felt as though none of the instructors knew what the last one(s) did unless I told them. It was confusing, drawn out, and not something I would recommend.

I'll be stepping down now... but I truly hope this helps some.

 

[Don Wray]

Did I miss that option? Where is that in the standards?

In confined water two performance requirements number 9:

9. Demonstrate the response to a leaking low pressure inflator by disconnecting
the low pressure hose from the inflator mechanism in shallow water (either
underwater or at the surface.)

 

[Puffer Fish]

As a newly certified diver I have come to the conclusion that yes everyone is right... it's not really the agency but the instructor that makes a difference. I chose the agency based on the fact that my buddy was already certified via that agency. I chose the instructor based on location of the LDS that was that agencies instructor. (they were close to where I lived)

Now that being said... I would choose differently now that I am certified and have gone to another shop and spent considerable time with another instructor. He is fantastic, takes time to ask me questions, gives me real advice on how to successfully complete a skill, or task. I will be taking my future classes with him.

My point? Take your time when choosing your instructor. And choose the INSTRUCTOR not the agency. I met the instructor at the shop I chose... and liked her... then when I went to class it was a different instructor... and then I ended up with a total of 4 different instructors. I was told this was normal... ok. It was difficult for me, I felt as though none of the instructors knew what the last one(s) did unless I told them. It was confusing, drawn out, and not something I would recommend.

I'll be stepping down now... but I truly hope this helps some.

Thanks for the comment and the point of view..it is easy to forget this is a very human experience..

 

[seaducer]

I would guess that as a new potential diver, looking to pick the right agency...do they use the minimum standards as the criteria, or do they use the instructor??

Minimum standards are your best bet, as you know you are getting at least this training. Especially when taking an entry level course like OW, you may not know enough to be able to interview your instructor for competence.

just because an agency openly encourages instructors to exceed standards, or structure the class to their liking, does not mean an instructor will take advantage of this freedom, or do so to a positive effect.

I have seen people hold one agency over others in high regard on the basis that instructors have more freedom to teach. To me though, this means also more freedom for lazy instructors to do very little, or allows the someone to have a personality conflict with a student and grade them on a higher curve.

The best option is for an agency to raise standards, not allow more freedom. If you want to be a governing body, then govern...

 

[ScubaDocER]

Minimum standards are your best bet, as you know you are getting at least this training. Especially when taking an entry level course like OW, you may not know enough to be able to interview your instructor for competence.

just because an agency openly encourages instructors to exceed standards, or structure the class to their liking, does not mean an instructor will take advantage of this freedom, or do so to a positive effect.

I have seen people hold one agency over others in high regard on the basis that instructors have more freedom to teach. To me though, this means also more freedom for lazy instructors to do very little, or allows the someone to have a personality conflict with a student and grade them on a higher curve.

The best option is for an agency to raise standards, not allow more freedom. If you want to be a governing body, then govern...

I would disagree with the statement about freedom be equated with laziness or allowing for a personality conflict. The concept of allowing more freedom means that the Instructor has the ability to go beyond the suggested minimum. All of the Instructors with "freedom" still have standards that they are held to. The suggestion of encouraging more freedom means that these Instructors have the ability to go BEYOND that minimum and offer their students more information in a manner that allows them to assimilate it. Each student is different. Their needs and learning ability are different. Freedom allows the Instructor to tailor their educational skills to an individual student. Some Instructors are only allowed to teach the bare minimum. Freedom means that you have the ability to go beyond that, not be too lazy to teach appropriately. Not sure about the personality comment or how having more freedom to teach beyond the minimum equates to having a conflict with a student. If a conflict exists, it is most likely with the two people involved, independent of the agency.

 

[offthewall1]

The more I look the more I find can any one tell me the differences between say PADI, Naui, ANDI, ETC....

In a very generalized statement I can say they're all the same... especially for new divers starting out in an "Open Water Diver" or entry level program. The only real exception in any way is SDI (Scuba Diving International.)

SDI is different only because SDI teaches you to dive with computers... which is how an overwhelming majority of people dive. Other than that, the entry level classes, pool training and "checkout" dives will be very similar if not exactly the same.

We occassionally see threads about which agency to choose... and the answer is that the agency doesn't matter so much. It is more the quality of the individual Instructor giving the lesson. There are good and bad Instructors in every agency and even within each dive shop.

Certainly some agencies c-cards are better recognized around the globe... but this has little to do with quality... and more to do with marketing dollars.

If you have choices in your area... visit each shop, interview the instructors and find one that you feel comfortable with. The agency is not all that important. I've traveled the globe and have yet to see a c-card turned down when presented. I've heard stories of this happening... but it never means "no diving"... at worst it means they may want to have you demonstrate a few skills prior to setting you free. Some resorts do this no matter what c-card you present. So don't be offended by it.

The most recognized agencies around the globe are PADI, SDI, SSI, BSAC, CMAS and NAUI. There are many other great agencies not as recognized such as ANDI, ACUC, IDEA, PSAI, PDIC, TDI, IANTD, NACD and many more.

Our recomendation is simple... find a good Instructor with any of these agencies and take advantage of their knowledge.

Something further... when interviewing prospective Instructors, here are a few tips of questions to ask...
1. How long have you been diving? (not teaching.) I'd go with an Instructor who has been diving for twenty years and only recently became an Instructor before I'd choose the young kid who's been teaching for three years and started diving three years ago.
2. Where have you been? Go for the Instructor who has traveled extensively and dove in conditions all around the world. He'll have more knowledge and experience to share with you than the Instructor who's only dove in the local quarry.
3. Listen to them and watch them. They should make strong eye contact with you and not appear nervous about answering your questions.
4. They should not be giving you a sales pitch and trying to sell you gear while you're asking your questions about the class.
5. They should let you finish your questions without interrupting you mid-sentence.
6. You should be able to tour the training classroom and it should be neat and clean and seperate from a showroom floor. This means you won't be constantly interrupted during class.
7. Do some homework in advance, then ask some questions about gear. See how knowledgeable the Instructor is. Can he answer your questions adequately.
8. Use your intuition and first impression. If you think this is a good person... go for it. If you get a bad vibe... stay away.

Hopefully this all make sense and was pertinent to your original question. Happy and Safe Diving to All!

 

[seaducer]

I would disagree with the statement about freedom be equated with laziness or allowing for a personality conflict. The concept of allowing more freedom means that the Instructor has the ability to go beyond the suggested minimum. All of the Instructors with "freedom" still have standards that they are held to. The suggestion of encouraging more freedom means that these Instructors have the ability to go BEYOND that minimum. . . .

It does not require that they teach beyond the minimum. If two agencies have similar minimum standards, then they are similar, period. Just because one agency openly encourages it's instructors to train beyond that level does not mean that the student will receive instruction beyond those standards, as that is up to the individual instructor, and is at that time out of the agency's hands. They can only guarantee/enforce up to the minimum.

This is somewhat an academic point, as IME PADI instructors also teach beyond the minimum standards of the agency as well. So did the one SDI instructor I have taken a class with.

I do think that it is most important that you find a good instructor, and that it really does not matter what agency is on your card. To my knowlege there is no agency that can guarantee their instructor's:

• teach in a style that is compatible with how you as an individual learns
• will take any extra time to help you with issues with skills or phobias
• will make sure you are trained above the standards they have set

Some instructors take the "no diver left behind" concept a little to seriously, and will pass a student who demonstrates proficiency to the level specified in the standards, even if they know the student is not comfortable or even any good at the skill. But a good instructor will work with the student to exceed those minimum levels. However no agency can state their instructors will teach above the standard, or produce divers that are above their minimum standards.

Walter has stated the the biggest lie in the scuba training industry is "its the agency not the instructor". I disagree. I think the biggest lie is "XYZ is a better agency because their instructors teach beyond the minimum standards". Bullocks. A specific instructor for that agency is a good instructor because he/she trains above standards. But the instructor in the shop down the street who teaches for the same agency may not, and doesn't have to.

It all boils down to, when evaluating what agency to take training from, you need to base your decision on their minimum standards, as that is all you can be sure you will trained to.

Unless you know the instructor, you cannot know they teach beyond those standards.