Discussion of best practices for advancing in cave diving (moved from A&I JB thread)

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Germie

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First, I don't read here about that the victem did a zero to hero. The person was trained, only had an accident and had maybe not a lot of experience in ccr cave diving. It sounds more to me as just wrong time, wrong place. There happen also car accidents with new drivers, and with more experienced drivers as well. Did the diver had planned that restriction? Did the diver know it is so narrow? Then we know more details. Maybe it was not planned at all, they only came on that line and thought you can go through it as there is a line into it. Then you try and get stucked.
Most times if you get stucked, you are able to get back and then nothing happened. I read this as just bad luck. And yes, maybe that restriction could be done with more experience, but we don't know. Maybe the same would have been happen if the diver came there 1 year later, so with more experience. Maybe he would have survived, we don't know.
You can say divers must make a plan before the dive, but if you know depth and time, you can do a dive and jump, without knowing where a line goes. Just know the return time/pressure/depth is a plan a lot of divers follow. Then the restriction was maybe not planned. But you are allowed to do restrictions after finishing a cave course. So then the restriction was smaller than thought and with bad luck you was not able to get out again.
We don't know reasons why they did it, we can only do speculations. We can discuss the speculations as safe or unsafe, but we cannot link it with the victums.

And if we talk about cave courses, everybody knows that the things outside a certification limit are the most interesting ones by a lot of divers. That is normal human behaviour. Here in Europe you see intro to cave divers taking a stage, also cave1 divers. They also do jumps, circuits, etc. Why? They are human.
So why not take a look at the courses and how you tell about the forbidden things?

The intro to cave, a lot of agencies say 1/6 rule, gue a little bit different, only a few say 1/3, but if people pay for a full fill, they want to use more than only 2/6, they most times want to use the full perspective of the 'officiall' cave rules, so 1/3. Intro to cave divers can officially not do a recalculation of gas, so they finish their dive with a lot of gas in it. If they follow the certification limits. I talk about a non flowing cave, with outflow more gas is left. Save, yes. But they also know that others dive with the same amount of gas on 1/3 (and I also believe a lot of divers never change the idea of 1/3, even if there can be reasons to be more conservative, 1/3 is the max in cave diving, so they use it). So what do you see with intro to cave certs that limit the amount of gas to less than 1/3? Yes, the human beings start diving on 1/3. Then they see a nice sidetunnel. Why not take a look in there? And the next broken rule is born. All human behaviour.

So tell me, have you never dived outside any rule? Most people have. I also have according to some, but I don't know for sure. Or was doing dpv cave dives without a dpv cert also outside a limit (I never knew when I did a full cave course, as this was told to me as the course that you have no limits anymore after finishing, combined with a full trimix, you can do all you want)? Or doing ccr cave dives with just an full cave cert? (I already did in a time there was no ccr cave instructor in Europe, I was the first one in my country years later).
Now wreck penetrations courses are also 'invented', does this mean the cave cert is not enough anymore to penetrate a wreck where it was for years? A downgrade of a card you already have and where you have done successfull wreckpenetrations with? No of course not, you can do wreck penetrations with your full cave cert as you always did. Is the course useless? no. Please take it if you feel the need to do it. But don't make in mandatory for every wreckdiver. The Ginnie springs discussion about the ccr cave card. Divers were doing ccr cave courses for many years and then needed to have a card. Does the card make the diving safer? No. A lot just bought a card.

So remember, we are all human and the more people complaign about divers not following rules, the more some divers are attracted to the 'forbidden' part. As instructor you can warn, you refuse a cert or refuse teaching, then you have done what you must do. But you cannot stop a diver that really want to do. We also see skiers in winter outside officiall slopes without any knowledge. Are they refused somewhere? Or just stubborn? Or adventurous humans?

I think we must warn, we must talk about limits, we still must refuse some students, refuse to give some certs to certain divers, but at the end, there will be still accidents. Only a few will be stopped or braked by refusing, but that can be enough to make cave diving safer. But please never have the idea that you can stop divers from doing stupid things. That is impossible. We cannot stop human from doing stupid things. We are human. And remember, warning will also attrack sometimes others. A thing we also cannot change. There is no scuba police (and even then, with police on streets you still see exceeding speed limits, etc).

And what about the autodidactical way? In diving there is no place for it. Are that bad divers at all? Can you stop them? No. Will a sort of exam they can do without a course maybe help to get a cert and improve safety? Maybe yes. Dry caving is most times teached by more experienced friends. This is not hidden. The autodidactical divers try to hide their activities most times. Would a dialog help? I think such discussions will also help to make diving safer.

Talking negative about zero to hero (what is it exactly?) will not help. Be more open about it, start a dialog, not complaigning only.

A dialog about lines in a cave can also be helpfull I think. If a lot of divers have a problem in such a restriction, maybe make the jump more invisible so people won't go too easy to it? And will hold a line in the restriction make it safer as the hands are free to wiggle you through the restriction? Or is it better that only divers go in that lay their own line? I think such discussions can be usefull, on internet and face to face.[/Mod]
 
Now wreck penetrations courses are also 'invented', does this mean the cave cert is not enough anymore to penetrate a wreck where it was for years? A downgrade of a card you already have and where you have done successfull wreckpenetrations with? No of course not, you can do wreck penetrations with your full cave cert as you always did. Is the course useless? no. Please take it if you feel the need to do it. But don't make in mandatory for every wreckdiver. The Ginnie springs discussion about the ccr cave card. Divers were doing ccr cave courses for many years and then needed to have a card. Does the card make the diving safer? No. A lot just bought a card.
Wreck courses have been a thing as long as cave, I suspect you just weren't aware of it. Some instructors sold cave as great for wreck but I always felt that cave training alone while great for some stuff, lacks stuff that is vitally important in wreck (I am both a cave and wreck instructor trainer).
But, doesn't matter, if anything your post proves that what a person may believe they are certified for, and another may believe they are certified to do may be quite different.
To your point on full cave and restrictions, the standards don't require we teach in restrictions. Restrictions (major) that gear must be removed is covered in Advanced Sidemount. Quite frankly, the skills in that course are vital in "grinding" tight passage and also in giving the diver the tools to make good judgement calls. That said, the new full cave diver should be staying out of them and getting experience, then if so desire seek training for the tight stuff.

The use of "sidemount" is poorly defined.. many think SM is for tight, when most classes for sidemount are just a configuration class, not a tight spot techniques class that comes in advanced sidemount. I honestly believe that many new sidemount divers aren't clear on that
 
True, in full cave classes is 'no equipment removal' allowed. But you still can get stucked in restrictions with all on it.
And is a stage removal equipment removal? Because a stage drop is teached in cave courses. What is the difference then? Or is this only removal of your wing/harnass? If you ask this to instructors most say removing a stage is no equipment removal. But a twinset or harnas is.

In early days there was a sidemount/no mount cave course. Now it looks like these are 2 different things.
And do you want to teach no mount as instructor? We are all human and every diver can panic, how well trained. As instructor you are responsable. So would you take a student in a restriction where you A) cannot see him? B) cannot help him if he get stucked? So if you answer no, then learning these tight restrictions can only be done by getting experience on your own.

I ask such questions to get a discussion and to let people think about.
My full cave was sold as 'after the course you can do anything you want'. I don't sell courses myself that way. But it is done. Also I did a cave course because I almost drowned in a wreck. So it was also a good wreck penetration course for me. :wink:

I think it is impossible to require a restriction to be done in a full cave course. Sometimes it can be done, but sometimes not. Depending on weather and caves. Also I know some caves where the entrance sometimes is a major restriction and sometimes can be done quite easy.

But then another question is coming: Do you believe you cannot become a good full cave diver when you don't want to do restrictions? I believe that you can be a good cave diver if you don't like restrictions. At least these divers know their limits quite well. And I think that is the most important thing, safe cavediving. But I always try to do some smaller passages in a cave course, not only the wide ones where you can drive a car through. But smaller does not mean directly a major restriction. I have seen this, people who found things a restriction where I really did not saw anything, just a little bit smaller passage.

I also know a cave diver who is doing every year 1 week the same 30 minute cavedives in France, 2 times a day. For me really boring, but for him really cavediving. And if he likes it, so why not let him like his dives? He will not bring too less gas, no depths that require stops, I can do that dive 5 times on the same twinset. Remember that most cave divers only do recreational cave divers and that this must be safe and fun. But yes, the divers that never do restrictions are maybe safer than the ones that want to do restrictions. But when is it too extreme? An answer we can easy judge about on internet, but not easy to answer in reality.
 
True, in full cave classes is 'no equipment removal' allowed. But you still can get stucked in restrictions with all on it.
And is a stage removal equipment removal? Because a stage drop is teached in cave courses. What is the difference then? Or is this only removal of your wing/harnass? If you ask this to instructors most say removing a stage is no equipment removal. But a twinset or harnas is.

Yeah, and if removing a stage is cool, is removing a single SM cylinder? Is it removing if you leave attached by one snap? None of that is defined

In early days there was a sidemount/no mount cave course. Now it looks like these are 2 different things.
And do you want to teach no mount as instructor? We are all human and every diver can panic, how well trained. As instructor you are responsable. So would you take a student in a restriction where you A) cannot see him? B) cannot help him if he get stucked? So if you answer no, then learning these tight restrictions can only be done by getting experience on your own.

Here we are again at no mount, my position is that major "grinder" cave, low and even without any gear removal , what so many call sidemount only is as dangerous as "no mount" but because the diver doesn't have to remove gear, it's cool??? Further, no mount, while adding some additional SERIOUS considerations and complications, you are much less likely to get keyed because kit while in the tight (but ca of course still get stuck). My view is still that full cave and a sidemount card isn't enough for sidemount only passage or grinding.
In teaching you pick spots that you can control as many variables as possible. If going to teach students to deal with getting stuck, pick appropriate spots you can get to student from both sides (easily) and the viz isn't getting blown. Have them do with vision, then with a Black out mask. Have them practice. Demonstrate etc. That's just responsible instructing.


I ask such questions to get a discussion and to let people think about.
My full cave was sold as 'after the course you can do anything you want'. I don't sell courses myself that way. But it is done. Also I did a cave course because I almost drowned in a wreck. So it was also a good wreck penetration course for me. :wink:



Yeah, selling it as "you are good to go do anything in a cave" is negligent IMHO

I think it is impossible to require a restriction to be done in a full cave course. Sometimes it can be done, but sometimes not. Depending on weather and caves. Also I know some caves where the entrance sometimes is a major restriction and sometimes can be done quite easy.

Yeah, and again, if a new cave diver never did a grinder restriction in training, why does anyone think it's a good idea the first time is w/out instruction?



But then another question is coming: Do you believe you cannot become a good full cave diver when you don't want to do restrictions? I believe that you can be a good cave diver if you don't like restrictions. At least these divers know their limits quite well. And I think that is the most important thing, safe cavediving. But I always try to do some smaller passages in a cave course, not only the wide ones where you can drive a car through. But smaller does not mean directly a major restriction. I have seen this, people who found things a restriction where I really did not saw anything, just a little bit smaller passage.

Again, smaller is not same as "sidemount only" or grinders. And yeah, many divers will be very happy being gold line divers in bigger caves, I know a bunch of them

I also know a cave diver who is doing every year 1 week the same 30 minute cavedives in France, 2 times a day. For me really boring, but for him really cavediving. And if he likes it, so why not let him like his dives? He will not bring too less gas, no depths that require stops, I can do that dive 5 times on the same twinset. Remember that most cave divers only do recreational cave divers and that this must be safe and fun. But yes, the divers that never do restrictions are maybe safer than the ones that want to do restrictions. But when is it too extreme? An answer we can easy judge about on internet, but not easy to answer in reality.
My answers in red
 
Yeah, and if removing a stage is cool, is removing a single SM cylinder? Is it removing if you leave attached by one snap? None of that is defined.

Again, smaller is not same as "sidemount only" or grinders. And yeah, many divers will be very happy being gold line divers in bigger caves, I know a bunch of them

In teaching you pick spots that you can control as many variables as possible. If going to teach students to deal with getting stuck, pick appropriate spots you can get to student from both sides (easily) and the viz isn't getting blown. Have them do with vision, then with a Black out mask. Have them practice. Demonstrate etc. That's just responsible instructing.

Exactly and this is why things are not always as easy as it looks like.
Cave diving is for most of us a hobby, and don't do what you don't like. And do what you like as safe as possible.

And about teaching, from what I read about this restriction, it is not a thing that will ever be teached in a course. So maybe it was too early for the divers, but if you can move a little bit foreward, there is also a risk that moving backwards is impossible. So getting out of a serious restriction can be really hard then.

I try to get some narrower spots also in a course and sometimes I go to a really small cave that is not worth diving outside of a course. But it starts very wide and then gets smaller and smaller in just a few minutes swimming. There is no risk of getting stucked, turning is always possible as it is only narrow in heigth, not in width. I tell them, you can swim in as far as you feel well. There is no right or wrong, but go till you think this is enough. You see some divers turn really early. Not wrong, they just learned what their limits were.

But about responsible instructing, when I was looking for a ccr cave crossover, I contacted an instructor who said that to pass that crossover I had to dive my backmount rebreather in the Truffe cave. I said, I have tried it, but where a twin12 fits, the Inspiration for sure does not fit. He said that I had to take my unit in front of me and then squeeze in and then put the unit back on my back. I haven't done that crossover with this instructor. I have never teached a ccr cave class in this cave, in my eyes this is equipment removal for sure. I am not afraid of diving in caves, but I will never squeeze myself into a restriction when I have to remove my ccr from my back. Then I have sidemount equipment if needed.
 
True, in full cave classes is 'no equipment removal' allowed. But you still can get stucked in restrictions with all on it.
And is a stage removal equipment removal? Because a stage drop is teached in cave courses. What is the difference then? Or is this only removal of your wing/harnass? If you ask this to instructors most say removing a stage is no equipment removal. But a twinset or harnas is.

I think the difference is that once you start adding stages you are planning for the scenario where the stage is lost, and still have the ability to absorb at least one more gas related failure in the team. While removing a "back gas" bottle and it is lost now you no longer have the ability to absorb a failure within the team without adding a major risk.
 
When I am using stages, I use a 3rd of the stage then drop it. I make sure it is closed. When I return I have My 3rd's to get out if it fails. With 2 stages it would be highly unlikly you would lose both stages. That would be tricky if solo and that happened. If you have a buddy in this scenario, losing 4 stages (2 each) is not going to happen.
 
When I am using stages, I use a 3rd of the stage then drop it. I make sure it is closed. When I return I have My 3rd's to get out if it fails.
I don't follow you. If the stage fails, you no longer have access to the gas, no matter how much gas you left in...
 
Thirds on stages doesn’t make a lot of sense.

That gas cannot be shared (one hose), and when you get back to the next stage, you have a scrap of gas left in the previous one about 1000psi). If things are going sideways, you now have a bundle of stages, each with just a little bit of gas in them.

Half’s on stages and reserving the balance into your backgas allows that reserve to be shared and you keep it with you the entire dive. You’re either on the stage or it’s empty on the way out so you have full access to all the gas in the water but can ditch the empties along the way out so you move faster.
 
Thirds on stages doesn’t make a lot of sense.

That gas cannot be shared (one hose), and when you get back to the next stage, you have a scrap of gas left in the previous one about 1000psi). If things are going sideways, you now have a bundle of stages, each with just a little bit of gas in them.

Half’s on stages and reserving the balance into your backgas allows that reserve to be shared and you keep it with you the entire dive. You’re either on the stage or it’s empty on the way out so you have full access to all the gas in the water but can ditch the empties along the way out so you move faster.
This is the way, almost always
 
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