Disadvantages of DIR ?

[RichLockyer]

Headhunter - I like your description above - It's the impression I've been left with after following the DIR forum intently for the past several months as well. I fail to see the arrogant attitude that some have found.

Rec.scuba
Jammer Six has turned a lot of people off. Really, he doesn't care, and hearing what GI had to say on the DVD set, I can see his point. Those who are open-minded will look into it, no matter how it is presented, and they will see the advantages. Those who are not, will not, or they will go in with a "this is bogus" attitude and of course, come up with all kinds of reasons why it won't work for them. You won't teach a pig to sing. When they are ready to accept it, they will go in with an open mind.

Jammer can be a butthead at times, but he is pretty good at Socratic teaching. He was actually in my killfile when I "came around" and really started to see the advantages of DIR. I spent over a year trying to justify my purchases and how my training was perfectly adequate.
Then I tried an air sharing drill with my buddy... SHORT hoses and Air-2's.
Then I tried a frog kick and quick turns (good for lobstering!) with my split fins.
Then I looked at my rig and realized that if I ever bought a scooter, it would work my arms like water skiing... and I'm not a water skiier.
Then I looked at my lantern and wondered what it would be like to be able to get 4 hours AND be able to use both hands while using the light... my wreck class was a PITA trying to run the reel while holding the light.

I still dive with HP120 cylinders

 

[db8us]

P.S. Has anyone else noticed that DIR protocols seem to change occassionaly . . . Even the system itself accepts the idea of growth from experience, making it a continually growing and changing set of ideals based upon what has been learned and observed.

Hi Tim,

yes it is changing or better evolving. This is due to equipment beeing "made better" or due to new knowledge or better procedures. However most of this stuff is pretty hardly visible from the outside.
One thing that was a great improvement for me in the last years was the use of bungees instead of caveline to clip things inside our pockets. Some people might think "What ? This small thing?" but this is the nice thing about DIR, it is pretty well thought out and proven, so often changes are very "minor" but still have a big impact.

Michael

 

[RichLockyer]

P.S. Has anyone else noticed that DIR protocols seem to change occassionaly . . . Even the system itself accepts the idea of growth from experience, making it a continually growing and changing set of ideals based upon what has been learned and observed.

There's only a few things that I can think of offhand... three are actually differences between GI's opinion and what is still acceptable to GUE:
The butt mounted D-ring: George started doing it for long cave penetrations because he would run out of room on the hip D-ring and needed a place for extra reels. This D-ring is under no circumstances to be used in this manner in a wreck due to the entanglement hazard. George's comment was along the lines of "I wish people wouldn't copy me"... true enough. If you don't know WHY someone is doing something, you shouldn't copy them. Good point to why you can't learn DIR online.
Use of closed-circuit DSMB's: Halcyon sells them, but he doesn't like them. His comment was that anything that requires you to disconnect an inflator hose is a CF waiting to happen. Use a bag that can be inflated with a 2nd.
ACB weight system: Ditto the lift bags. Simply not an ideal weight mounting system. His actual comment can't be posted here

One change that is "GI Approved" is that it is no longer acceptable to run the 2nds hand-tight. There have been cases of regs coming off in OW (another example of "don't do it without knowing why"), and even in a cave, the divers needed to carry a wrench, because invariably they would encounter a reg that could NOT be loosened by hand. If the wrench is therefore always present and possibly needed, then it is not logical to attempt to remove the need for the wrench since it can't be 100%, and your life may depend on it.

I think they are currently moving toward the use of helium in the shallow deco mix (70ft), but AFAIK, that's only a WKPP thing at this point. Regardless, this would be a progressive change showing acceptance of modern deco theory developments.
DIR itself evolved through accident analysis. Hmm... this guy died... this guy got bent... what did they do wrong? Okay, let's never do that again. Now, how can we accomplish the objective, as simply as possible, without doing that?

Other than that, there has been some broadening of GUE's focus as a training organization, and much of this has been in reponse to the desire for better training from recreational divers.

 

[Mandy3206]

No, I don't know any DIR divers and my impresion is from posts from some of the DIR advocates in this forum in particular.

I'm not trying to step on nobodys toes, and I'm not trying to offend no one, if I did, I'm sorry.

I just pointed out that Some DIR proponents shouldn't act like it's their way or you're wrong!!

and how many DIR divers do you know and dive with? or is this all your impression from the negative posts from non DIR divers?

 

[geraldp]

Rec.scuba
Jammer Six has turned a lot of people off. Really, he doesn't care, and hearing what GI had to say on the DVD set, I can see his point. Those who are open-minded will look into it, no matter how it is presented, and they will see the advantages. Those who are not, will not, or they will go in with a "this is bogus" attitude and of course, come up with all kinds of reasons why it won't work for them. You won't teach a pig to sing. When they are ready to accept it, they will go in with an open mind.

Jammer can be a butthead at times, but he is pretty good at Socratic teaching. He was actually in my killfile when I "came around" and really started to see the advantages of DIR. I spent over a year trying to justify my purchases and how my training was perfectly adequate.

Ahh yes Jammer6. I spent about a year and a half on rec.scuba - until I found this board this last Spring. You are being too kind... I would not call Jammer a teacher of anything. 99% of his posts consisted of one sentance - denouncing other posters as "strokes". When anybody complained, he dribbled out something about "owning them" (as you say, he doesn't care). He certainly didn't turn me off of DIR, mostly because his posts were so cryptic I didn't know what his point was - except to be critical.

Jerry

 

[MikeFerrara]

There's only a few things that I can think of offhand... three are actually differences between GI's opinion and what is still acceptable to GUE:
The butt mounted D-ring:

LOL, I always though it was a silly place to put a reel.

Use of closed-circuit DSMB's: Halcyon sells them, but he doesn't like them.

I don't like those either

ACB weight system: Ditto the lift bags. Simply not an ideal weight mounting system. His actual comment can't be posted here

I tried em but prefer a weight belt.

One change that is "GI Approved" is that it is no longer acceptable to run the 2nds hand-tight.

Clip a wrench off in a pocket.

I think they are currently moving toward the use of helium in the shallow deco mix (70ft), but AFAIK, that's only a WKPP thing at this point.

Lots of people are doing this.

DIR itself evolved through accident analysis. Hmm... this guy died... this guy got bent... what did they do wrong? Okay, let's never do that again. Now, how can we accomplish the objective, as simply as possible, without doing that?

DIR has put lots of good ideas together that would be hard for any one to deny like tank marking, standard gasses, gas switch procedures ect. Lots of simplifications that go along way toward "mistakeproofing"various stages of planning and executing a dive. Maybe they didn't invent them all but they sure helped bring them to the forfront.

Other than that, there has been some broadening of GUE's focus as a training organization, and much of this has been in reponse to the desire for better training from recreational divers.

One has to give them a tip of the hat in this area also. While there are other infividual instructors who do a great job, GUE is the only one that I know of that consistantly maintains such a high level of quality.

 

[kidspot]

And to think I've been telling myself I would not get involved in this thread - LOL - oh well. . .

in regards to "Has anyone else noticed that DIR protocols seem to change occassionaly . . ." (yes quoting myself - must be the step before arguing with myself ) I said this because so many seem to percieve DIR as a very rigid system, unbending, when, from what I have observed, this is not the case - it appears to bend very easily . . . whenever something better comes along. . . that's not the sign of an overinflated "ego" but rather one of "teachability" Of course this is all the perspective of one on the outside, looking in (I am but a lowly cyberdiver who is here for an education before "jumping in" (which should be in 6 days!!!)

Tim

 

[MaxBottomtime]

There's a recent change that I can't figure out. During my GF's Tech1 course, the instructor told me about the latest GUE policy change. If you have to isolate a leaking tank they now recommend breathing from the other tank and letting the problem tank empty itself. I've always thought that since you are thumbing the dive anyway, you should breathe off the leaking tank until it's gone, conserving the other until you need it. It makes sense to me to save as much gas as possible in case you or your buddy need it. If a problem came up that required isolating the tanks, there's no guarantee that another problem won't come up during your ascent.

 

[Dan Gibson]

Unless this has changed since my Cave 2 in December, this is not GUE's policy. For divers not carrying a stage or deco bottle, it is correct. If you have a stage or deco bottle, the primary is finger tight.

The change to wrench tight for most people (i.e. no stage or deco bottle) occured before the class in December. I don't believe it has changed since that time.

I would confirm with David Rhea or AG since they are the training directors.

One change that is "GI Approved" is that it is no longer acceptable to run the 2nds hand-tight. There have been cases of regs coming off in OW (another example of "don't do it without knowing why"), and even in a cave, the divers needed to carry a wrench, because invariably they would encounter a reg that could NOT be loosened by hand. If the wrench is therefore always present and possibly needed, then it is not logical to attempt to remove the need for the wrench since it can't be 100%, and your life may depend on it.

 

[Dan Gibson]

Seems to me that you might be looking at the wrong shoulder when pointing out that chip.

Just chill out and expose your philosophy in a more inviting way and don't try to shove it down everyones throat.

Just drop the chip on the shoulder and care to teach us the mere mortals the way you think diving should be done, we don't know everything, but neither do you, lets share knowledge and let everyone decide what's best for each.