Disadvantages of DIR ?

[novadiver]

How about, "Lord Master Nova?"

No thank you, SIR will be just fine

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

On the service it does seem like a bit of a strawman. However given the average level of dive skill you see coming out of OW it's not that big of a stretch.

I guess it all depends on the diver and the instructor ... but I don't think it's a stretch to assume that there are safe divers out there who do not wear a hog rig ... even relatively new divers.

I'm not ignoring this, I genuinely don't know what to say.

How 'bout just recognizing that there are people who are geniunely interested in learning DIR who are not perfect divers. For that matter, from my experience there are divers coming out of Fundies who still have a lot of work to do just on the most basic skills like buoyancy control ... or paying attention to their gear. Fundies won't make you an inherently safe diver. It will only show you some of what you have yet to learn. The rest is up to you.

I still think it's reasonable to say someone isn't DIR buy looking at their gear. That said, there is no way anyone can say someone is a stroke or unsafe simply by looking at their gear.

I agree ... and I wasn't suggesting that someone could be DIR and not wear the gear. What I was saying is that wearing the gear won't make you DIR. In fact, it won't even in and of itself make you a safer diver. Nor is it reasonable to say that someone who isn't wearing the gear is an unsafe diver.

I was also disagreeing with the statement that wearing a standard rig is "as far from DIR as you can get". That's not what I got out of my DIR training, nor the many hours I've spent underwater with DIR-trained divers. I think you can get a lot farther than that. For example, divers who don't pay attention to their profiles, who cannot hold a safety stop without the assistance of a down line, who swim away from their dive buddies, who don't pay attention to their gas supply, who don't practice basic safety skills on a regular basis ... those divers are all much farther away from DIR than a conscientious diver wearing a standard rig. Many of those divers cannot even be trained ... because they don't recognize that what they're doing is fundamentally unsafe.

The gear is essential to the system ... but it's really the easy part. Consider GI3's famous essay about not diving with a stroke. I don't have it here in front of me, but as I recall gear wasn't mentioned in there at all ... it was all about attitude and habits. And that ... to me at least ... is the most important aspect of the DIR system. Yes, you need the gear. But any fool with a credit card can acquire that. The rest you have to work for.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cornfed]

I guess it all depends on the diver and the instructor ... but I don't think it's a stretch to assume that there are safe divers out there who do not wear a hog rig ... even relatively new divers.

Of course it depends on the instructor and I'm sure there are good divers coming out of basic OW. I'm simply pointing out one possible premise for the arguement.

How 'bout just recognizing that there are people who are geniunely interested in learning DIR who are not perfect divers.

I completely agree.

For that matter, from my experience there are divers coming out of Fundies who still have a lot of work to do just on the most basic skills like buoyancy control ... or paying attention to their gear. Fundies won't make you an inherently safe diver. It will only show you some of what you have yet to learn. The rest is up to you.

The idea that by taking fundies you will automagically be a better diver is silly. You have to work on things and spend time practicing after class. The reason so many people "see the light" after fundies is because they're used to the sterotypical specialty classes which are nearly impossible to fail. After fundies the instructor will explain to you want you need to work on and how to go about fixing it. They then withhold your c-card until you go out and practice those things. The simple fact that most people do not pass fundies the first time is proof that a lot of people come out of the class still needing to work on bouyancy, awareness etc.

I don't have it here in front of me, but as I recall gear wasn't mentioned in there at all ... it was all about attitude and habits. And that ... to me at least ... is the most important aspect of the DIR system. Yes, you need the gear. But any fool with a credit card can acquire that. The rest you have to work for.

People have been saying this for a long time.

 

[MikeFerrara]

As long as we're making assumptions, let's assume the same diver is wearing a hog rig ... forgets to clip off the primary ... and surface swims out to the marker buoy. Where, now, do you suppose their primary is (hint ... think super-danglie).

BTW - I saw this happen in a Fundies class.

The reg will be hanging right off your right shoulder. If you need a reg and can't locate it (which shouldn't be an issue) just stuff your back up in your mouth.

Also of course the dive hasn't started yet.

There are a bunch of things about a common rec configurations that while they may not be an immediate death sentace can certainly cause a diver trouble. In the case of a new diver or one with less than good trainng behind them it's a diver who just doean't need the extra problems.

I see dangling octos all over the place. I see whole classes of students where not a single one has it secured (even the instructor).

I see consols hanging all over. Even clipped though it's not good for much other than maybe a boat paddle. then there's the LONG hose used for it. While it might be handy to store all your gauges in one place in the garage I see nothing about the end of a HP hose that would lead me to believe that it's where a depth gauge or a compass should be.

My favorite...is all the divers I see trying to dry off their dust caps after a dive. LOL You can hear those hissing tanks a mile away. If they want them dry, why do the insist on taking them diving?!

I of course started with a rig like that only we were taught to blow on out dust caps so after the dive we were all standing aroung going fffffff...ffffffff...fffff. Until one day I decided to just not take it in the water. LOL After the dive when every one else was going...ffffff...ffffff I just put my cap on. My wife asked "aren't you going to dry that thing off first?". I then explained that I thought I'd try just keeping it dry to start with and it seemed to work great. you should have seen the look on every ones face. I couldn't tell if they though I'd commited sacrilage or just invented the light bulb.

I remember trying to do an ascent on a night dive with my consol in my left hand (to watch my ascent rate), and my light in my right (so I could see my gauges) and not having a hand left to dump air and slow my ascent. I got killed on that dive.

I'm not even DIR but the point is that the whole "standard rec configuration" is so poorly thought out and ill-concieved that it's funny. I started with a rig like that and got rid of it piece at a time as I figured out how rediculous it is.

So, even though I'm not DIR I would imagine that some the things I noticed are probably some of the reasons that you can't use a rig like that and be DIR. LOL

 

[Soggy]

I remember trying to do an ascent on a night dive with my consol in my left hand (to watch my ascent rate), and my light in my right (so I could see my gauges) and not having a hand left to dump air and slow my ascent. I got killed on that dive.

I had this same experience and this experience and it's little things like this that make me believe that a standard OW rig is fundamentally flawed and in many cases, dangerous.

 

[CincyBengalsFan]

It's not discrimination to exclude a person from participating in a class if the person is not capable of performing the essential functions needed to pass the course.

If they are capable of performing the skills, then there's no issue since there would be not be excluded. They would be evaluated the same as any other student.

Of course, this assumes that GUE classes are even subject to the provisions of the ADA or the state law cognates, which they probably aren't.

As for the smoking issue, smokers are not a protected class that fall within the scope of any anti-discrimination law anywhere in the country. GUE can take whatever position they wish on this issue with no fear of reprisal whatsoever.

It constantly amazes me that people get this wrapped around the axle over DIR. It's a system that appeals to many people, but not to everyone. That's fine because it's not intended to appeal to everyone. It's designed for people who accept GUE's methods.

The guy I take GUE classes from believes in the system and has relied upon it to execute some serious dives (WKPP and Britannic, for example). However, I believe him when he states that he is not trying to force anyone to dive a particular way. Instead, he offers advise and teaches courses to people who have asked him to do so.

Personally, I'd rather evaluate a dive buddy based upon their skills, attitude, equipment and personality than upon the number of GUE courses they've taken. I'd be more likely to perform a challenging dive with a GUE diver simply because our training would be similar. However, I'd rather dive with someone I trust who has never taken a GUE course than with a Tech II diver with an attitude problem and a history of issues.

Why are you so defensive. It was a simple question and a simple thought. Good grief. Where is GUE or DIR located? I'll lay down my rag and worship in that direction at sunset for now on.

It's good to hear the other responses that DIR/GUE will allow disabled to dive if they can accomplish the skills at hand. Thankyou for those responses.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

With an appropriate accomodation?

First, let me state that this is not legal advice. In addition, I'm not a discrimination lawyer and am not speaking on behalf of GUE.

My understanding is that a reasonable accommodation only needs to be provided in an employment context. Since this isn't employment, I doubt that this would apply.

To the extent that it does apply, I suspect that it would depend upon the nature of the accomodation and the impact it had on the diver and the diver's team.

Regardless of the law, the GUE instructors with whom I'm acquainted work very diligently with their students. This past weekend, a fairly large group of people from my LDS went to Dutch Springs. I worked an OW class. Others people were taking a DIR-F class. Still others were former students or certified divers who came to dive and practice.

The GUE instructor, his intern and his camera guy spent time answering questions from non-students and former students. They went into the water to demonstrate their points.

I'm absolutely certain the these people would work with a handicapped diver to determine whether it was possible for the diver to perform the required skills in a manner consistent with GUE's stated objectives. Bear in mind that GUE does not buy into the PADI drivel that everyone can dive and that they might determine that they cannot work with a particular individual.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Why are you so defensive. It was a simple question and a simple thought. Good grief. Where is GUE or DIR located? I'll lay down my rag and worship in that direction at sunset for now on.

It's good to hear the other responses that DIR/GUE will allow disabled to dive if they can accomplish the skills at hand. Thankyou for those responses.

I'm not defensive, I'm tired of hearing this same tired line. Its come up in many threads. IMHO, its based upon a fundamental misunderstanding of the ADA and of discrimination law in general.

If you decide to start praying towards Florida, that's your business. You'll be all alone. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd rather be diving.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Some good points. When I was actively teaching I never felt comfortable taking students with certain handicaps. It wasn't discrimination so much as I wanted to avoid killing them. There are instructors who specialize in training handicaped divers but I wasn't one of them. There is training available for instructors who wish to specialize but I never went through that training.

Some agencies permit 10 year olds to dive. I'm no lawyer but I never felt legaly or morally obligated to accept stucents that young and I didn't.

If the only way to meet an agencies requirements is to donate air with the right hand then it's clear that one without a right hand can't meet the requirements.

It seems to me that those sorts of things are up to the agency...or the instructor.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Bob...

dude...

You make a great point in your last several posts. I hope some others will consider it and perhaps adjust their attitude accordingly.

Everyone benefits by a little open-mindness.

Without meaning to detract from your overall message I will share with you an experience that I had when an octopus was "scary" and, at least in my mind at the time... "unsafe". Lobster hunting, deep, screwed up, soon to be out of air, buddy aware of my shortage, holding his octo in his hand ready to donate...my thoughts at the time...that looks "scary", is that thing gonna work, why oh why won't he set his gear up like mine, I sure wish that he was giving me the reg that's in his mouth...I know its working!

In our shop we teach with the standard rig...I hate it... but that's the deal. Students get a "you owe me a beer" for having a mask on their forehead. Silly. Do they get that call when their octo is dragging on the bottom of the pool or in the sand? Not likely.

Though calling someone with a well maintained, properly configured and correctly placed standard gear "unsafe" really shows a lack of maturity on the part of the name-caller, I must say that in reality this setup can be... and often is..."scary" and "unsafe". Try as I might to teach students the importance of being aware of their gear, I still see them later in life cruising with stuff dangling everywhere. The setup just lends itself to problems.

Stephen