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David Evans once bubbled...


DIR or not, I gotta say the whole idea of an electronically controlled closed circuit rebreather is scary.

I'm a photographer - a pretty serious one. I LOVE the idea of diving without bubbles for the purposes of photography. I've never dived a breather before. But if what I read about the death rates among breathers (esp. Inspirations) vs. open circuit is accurate, then I will have to keep blowing bubbles for a while longer.

Uneducated about rebreathers,

-david

If you look at what the famous underwater cinematographers of our times use as equipment, you will find various types of electronically controlled rebreathers on their backs. The simple truths are that your dive times are much longer, and fish are friendlier when you are diving a rebreather. (Turtles are not only friendlier, they get downright amorous!)

As for accident rates, as Samuel Clemens once said: "There are liars, damn liars, and then there are statistics!" As KentCE has pointed out, there is a tendency to blame any accident occurring on a rebreather on the "devil machine" itself, rather than the operator error or medical problems that actually caused the incident.

Rebreather diving is NOT the same as open-circuit diving. You must train yourself to a different level. It is more akin to flying an airplane. If you are willing to get the training, do the preflight checks, watch your gauges, and do your post-flight checks, it is actually safer than driving down whatever major interstate you regularly use.

If you have a serious interest, send me a private message off-list and I can give you more information. :D
 
If you jump in with your tank turned off you reach back and turn it on.

The simple fact is that there is a lot more that can go wrong on a rebreather, and again a lot more on an electronically controlled one.

There is simply no question that rebreathers are subject to all the failures of OC in ADDITION to the failures of rebreathers.

The warning system for many of these failures is what I like to call the "St. Peter" system.

Everything seems to be fine, and then you are greeted by St. Peter.:wink:

Diving is all about evaluating and accepting or rejecting risk. Rebreathers are a risk that I chose to reject. Others may chose to accpet this risk, I have no problems with that...if it's a friend of mine, I try to talk them out of it, but in the end we are all responsible for our own actions.

I also won't dive with a rebreather diver, due to the risk to me as a buddy.
 
Braunbehrens once bubbled...
If you jump in with your tank turned off you reach back and turn it on.

The simple fact is that there is a lot more that can go wrong on a rebreather, and again a lot more on an electronically controlled one.

There is simply no question that rebreathers are subject to all the failures of OC in ADDITION to the failures of rebreathers.

The warning system for many of these failures is what I like to call the "St. Peter" system.

Everything seems to be fine, and then you are greeted by St. Peter.:wink:

Diving is all about evaluating and accepting or rejecting risk. Rebreathers are a risk that I chose to reject. Others may chose to accpet this risk, I have no problems with that...if it's a friend of mine, I try to talk them out of it, but in the end we are all responsible for our own actions.

I also won't dive with a rebreather diver, due to the risk to me as a buddy.

A properly trained , experienced and equipped RB diver is in most liklihood a safer buddy than another OC diver..

I know that on more than one occassion I have donated bottom gas (just handed off a sling) and deco gas (same way)..

If you have a gas problem, I should have more than enough gas to hand the entire bottle over to you and not compromise my safety(and you can do your thing).. If I calculate my bailout right, I have enough gas to easily get a diver (myself or a buddy) out of trouble..

"if you jump off with your doubles turned off you can turn them back on"
You can actually do this MUCh faster on a most RB(since most invert the tanks), and if the diver is doing his checks he SHOULD check his guages immediately upon hitting the water (and before jumping in). Unless you are a total idiot you should have more than enough time to correct the situation..

There are other things that can be done to prevent thius and give a longer reaction time... I usually do an o2 flush of my loop before entering the water(I don't go overboard just try to get it as high as possible).. if the loop volume drops I manually add a bit of o2.. in this way the electronics aren't even an issue at this critical time.. If I had my gas off, The loop would become more difficult to breath (but still supply gas) at this point I knwo the [rpbl;em immediately... Probably every "danger" you can come up with a properly experienced RB diver has a way to eliminate that potential risk..

ANy diver whether it be on an RB or OC deserves whatever they get if they don;t do predive checks and proper gear checking upon entering the water.

A new RB diver without experience probably isn't that good of a buddy since the person's attention will be totally focused on the hardware.. One you know your body, you become aware of everything the RB is doing without checking the controllers.. I know what I expect the controllers to say when I check them.. Nothing happens quickly on a CCR RB you have time for everything.. The most dangerous time is when you are near the surface, while at depth unless you suspect a high PO2 or CO2 breakthrough (proper prep and following guidlines should avoid this) you have much more time than an OC diver to make a reasoned out choice on the best coarse of action.. not this instinct triggered reaction that is necessary when on OC.

If unsure just flush the loop or switch to your bailout for some sanity breaths..

I wouldn't say RB failures have all the failuures of OC... running out of gas is pretty unlikely on a ccr (you really have to be a fool to do it), batteries dying are likely if you don't always change them and track their time (but thats what backup controllers / displays are for)

I have done some deep wrecks with penetrations, on one occasion my guidline was cut and due to some inept divers there was zero viz towards the way out (poor fin control and exhaust bubbles from the oc regs).. on OC this would have been a BIG problem, running out of gas would have been a likely event.. I just rose towards the ceiling and hung out... after a few minutes the silt started to settle and I was able to get my bearings.. I had a little longer deco than planned but so what, I did it all and didn't dirty my drysuit...
 
padiscubapro once bubbled...


A properly trained , experienced and equipped RB diver is in most liklihood a safer buddy than another OC diver..

I know that on more than one occassion I have donated bottom gas (just handed off a sling) and deco gas (same way)..

If you have a gas problem, I should have more than enough gas to hand the entire bottle over to you and not compromise my safety(and you can do your thing).. If I calculate my bailout right, I have enough gas to easily get a diver (myself or a buddy) out of trouble..

SNIP


If unsure just flush the loop or switch to your bailout for some sanity breaths..

I wouldn't say RB failures have all the failuures of OC... running out of gas is pretty unlikely on a ccr (you really have to be a fool to do it), batteries dying are likely if you don't always change them and track their time (but thats what backup controllers / displays are for)


The reason I won't dive with a rebreather buddy is because I don't want to have to deal with an emergency caused by them, not because I think they would be unable to donate gas.

As for "sanity breaths", I have read a few accounts of people who've had CO2 problems on a breather, and they were not able to switch to OC. One guy in particular stated that he KNEW that he needed to go to OC, but simply could not do it due to mental impairment.

My biggest problem with rebreathers is the CO2 issue. Simply put, it can happen for a variety of causes, it sneaks up on you, and once you've got it you are too impaired to deal with it properly.

The O2 issue is there as well, although I understand that some guys are so familiar with their rb's that they think they can "tell from the sounds it makes" if everything is ok.

I really don't want to get bogged down in a long discussion here, but the OOA issue is the same in a rebreather as in OC. If you plan the gas right, then you should have more than enough to get you out. If you don't, then you are in trouble. This is no different on a rb. What if the unit fails and you don't have enough gas to do your deco. Same problem as in poorly planned OC.
 
cornfed once bubbled...
I'm just interested in the logistics required to pull these things off.

An excellent book to read is Beyond the Deep by Bill Stone and Barbara am Ende. Details exploration in one of the deepest and remotest caves in the world.

And I don't think you will have to read anything about DIR in the book:wink:
 
My biggest problem with rebreathers is the CO2 issue. Simply put, it can happen for a variety of causes, it sneaks up on you, and once you've got it you are too impaired to deal with it properly.

Hypercapnia can in deed be a big problem, especially for smokers. It is however very avoidable. Proper scrubber packing and time monitoring should avoid a co2 issue. As for the bail out to OC, it can indeed be a ***** if your in a bad state. At that point dilutent flushes and running in semi-closed mode should clear your head enough to get to OC. Most guys with great concern in this area add a oc/dsv. with a simple turn of a switch your on OC. The new KM m48 is going to be a great solution if they ever get off their butts and offer it.

As for the acccident rate, there is really no way to compare it to OC. I currently dive 6-10 hours weekly and average profile is 150-250'. I suspect most Inspiration divers are also diving alot, and diving deep. OC incidents are related to an estimated number of dives. Rebreather incidents are usually related to an estimated number of units sold. Also factored in must be natural causes, accidents not related to the gear, and diver error. I think by reading published reports you can eliminate the gear from most of the accidents to date.

I have found that the best diving in my area is in depths of 150' or more. Its off the beaten trail and not quite as disturbed as the local shollow reefs. The opportunity to photograph larger fish, sharks ect. occurs on almost every dive on the deeper wrecks and reefs.

A ccr is definately not for everyone. It is a tool for a specific type of diving. If your typical dive is a 70' reef, then you really dont need one; however, if you find yourself with doubles on every weekend, it may be for you.:)
 
Braunbehrens once bubbled...
Diving is all about evaluating and accepting or rejecting risk. Rebreathers are a risk that I chose to reject. Others may chose to accept this risk, I have no problems with that...if it's a friend of mine, I try to talk them out of it, but in the end we are all responsible for our own actions.

I also won't dive with a rebreather diver, due to the risk to me as a buddy.

I also won't dive with an OC diver (generally), due to the simple fact that I dive a rebreather to get much more bottom time, and I don't want to cut my dive short when the OC diver has to go back to the boat.

We seem to be forgetting something here. The title of this forum is "All About Rebreathers"! As such, it is a forum for those who are, by definition, interested in learning about, or more about, the subject of rebreathers.

The forum is NOT titled "Defense Against the Dark Arts"! As a self-admitted member of the Amish Diving Society, Braunbehrens does not fancy the use of computers and other new-fangled devil
machines. Since he admits he will never have a rebreather, nor will he dive with rebreather divers, I would suggest that he go to another forum more suited to his tastes and leave us to get on with talking about our devil-machines in peace. :D
 
saturated once bubbled...
As for the acccident rate, there is really no way to compare it to OC. I currently dive 6-10 hours weekly and average profile is 150-250'. I suspect most Inspiration divers are also diving alot, and diving deep. OC incidents are related to an estimated number of dives. Rebreather incidents are usually related to an estimated number of units sold. Also factored in must be natural causes, accidents not related to the gear, and diver error. I think by reading published reports you can eliminate the gear from most of the accidents to date.

Let's assume you have a design which works perfectly as a whole system yet small errors can have sever consequences. If is very tempting to say the user made a mistake and had they been more careful nothing would have happened; hence it is user error and not a problem with the unit. I disagree. The equipment may have functioned properly but the system itself if flawed.

Granted, my knowledge of 'breathers if very small and limited to "book smarts" but why would you want a system (any system, doesn't have to be diving related) which operates like this?

Cornfed
 
Could you clarify your position. What is meant by small errors? Expain why you feel the system is flawed. I think the systems have impoved greatly since I started diving on them in 79'.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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