Dir-?

[cornfed]

JeffG once bubbled...
The Link Mad Mole

thanks...

 

[saturated]

If satelite is the premium(ccr) and cable is the backup(oc). then you have 2 ways to get the desired result.(simpsons). While sat is the prefered method and may indeed work flawlessly till your 90 years old, cable is there to get your show should the dish fail. It is however your responsibility to notice the dish failure by monitoring the monitor and switch to cable should a failure occur.

Unfortunately most of the dives I do OC is not an option. CCR is definately the best solution unless you've got surface supplied rigs and a saturation enviroment. But most of us cant afford that. I am in no way suggesting that breathers are perfect. There indeed could be alot of improvements as I'm sure there will be. I do believe that with proper training the risks can be minimized to the point that they are acceptable to most people. Redundancy and backup is the most important thing in any foreign enviroment, diving, aviation ect. While we all wish we had no need for OC bailout, that will probaly remain for a very long time. Fact is mechanical-electronic things break. Had a friend who had a first stage fail at 140'. Possibly a fatal deal if he didnt have a backup. CCR, OC stuff breaks and you better be ready.

 

[Braunbehrens]

saturated once bubbled...
CCR, OC stuff breaks and you better be ready.

I knew we'd find some common ground

What I don't understand is how a 'breather diver will get out of a scrubber failure. The reason I dive DIR is because I feel that it does make you 'ready'. I truly feel that I have accounted for as many failures as possible. With a 'breather, I just feel that this is not the case. Granted, I don't know all that much about breathers.

I also understand that some dives, as you say, require 'breathers, or the kind of support that is not available, or some other configuration that is either not available or (to me) unsafe. I simply choose not to do these dives. I have no problem with someone else choosing to do them.

 

[cdiver2]

Hi guys as stated Im just a rec diver but like to read/talk all aspects of diving but, must comment this thread is geting real bad.
Big Jet you sound like one of the two DIR divers in the boat at the beginning. We all dive in one form or another for the love of it not to use as a boxing ring. Dont we live in a society that extol's free speach ?.

 

[cornfed]

cdiver2 once bubbled...
Hi guys as stated Im just a rec diver but like to read/talk all aspects of diving but, must comment this thread is geting real bad.
Big Jet you sound like one of the two DIR divers in the boat at the beginning.

Actually I thought it was getting better. You just need to filter out the sh*t.

We all dive in one form or another for the love of it not to use as a boxing ring.

PADI has a underwater boxing specialty.

Dont we live in a society that extol's free speach ?.

Yes, and some peope choose to exercise that right by telling people they are stupid. Some do, some don't... refer back to my earlier point about filtering.

Cornfed

 

[saturated]

What I don't understand is how a 'breather diver will get out of a scrubber failure. The reason I dive DIR is because I feel that it does make you 'ready'. I truly feel that I have accounted for as many failures as possible. With a 'breather, I just feel that this is not the case. Granted, I don't know all that much about breathers.

First off. A scruber failure should not exist if the material is properly packed and replaced at the specified interval. AP valves recommends three hours duration time for a co2 production rate of 1.6 lpm. My co2 production rate is 1.4(under maximum workload), so I'm close and err on the side of the manufacturer.(in truth a typical dive day has me down for a single dive and wet for about 2 hours, so its changed every 2 hours).

Should a failure occur, the symptoms will manifest (in me) as shortness of breath, pounding heart and extreme dizzyness. Dizzyness being advanced. Bear in mind that the symptoms I experience may not be the same for you. (I am not condoning this and def dont do alone). One thing to do is find out your symptoms. What we used to do is have one diver on each arm. and no material in the scrubber. holding onto the wall kick hard. It generally takes about 2-3 mins for symptoms to show.(again dont do this alone, and I am not condoning. Merly a way to experience the symptoms.)

Knowing what the symptoms are and what they feel like for me is very important, for me the shortness of breath appears prior to anything else. And a dilutent flush will clear symptoms up. As you said previously it can be next to impossible to bail with the room spinning. Best solution OC bail out built into the mouthpeice. But a flush will clear it up fast, then you can go to OC.

Example: I was in the bahamas diving a huge ledge off bimini. I got shorntess of breath and all the symptoms, I did a flush and bailed out to my stage(always carry one). On the surface I discovered my scrubber settled on the long ride to the dive site. (60 min Very choppy). 100% diver error.

So to survive a scrubber failure

1.) pack it right and on time so you dont have to worry.

2.) be in tune with your body, and get on OC when symptoms manifest

3.) wait for the new controllers that should have a pco2 monitor from what i've heard (1 & 2 will still apply though)

 

[padiscubapro]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


I knew we'd find some common ground

What I don't understand is how a 'breather diver will get out of a scrubber failure. The reason I dive DIR is because I feel that it does make you 'ready'. I truly feel that I have accounted for as many failures as possible. With a 'breather, I just feel that this is not the case. Granted, I don't know all that much about breathers.

I also understand that some dives, as you say, require 'breathers, or the kind of support that is not available, or some other configuration that is either not available or (to me) unsafe. I simply choose not to do these dives. I have no problem with someone else choosing to do them.

scrubber failures do happen, but I would say its much more likely that an OC diver will have a first stage failure before a RB diver has a scrubber failure PROVIDING the rules are followed..

Most RB manufacturers test their scrubber duration and as long as you stay withing the tested limits (they are usually VERY conservative) and properly assemble the canister (use chemical that his withing its use by date and stored properly) there should be no cause for concern..

Some designs try and take the poorly filled canister out of the loop so to say, but nothing can correct for someone leaving out a part or not caring for their gear properly..

for example the inspiration rates its scrubber at 180 mins @ 4c and 1.6 lpm co2 production rate (this is very high... I dare you to find ANYONE on earth that can keep up this rate for that long)

the prism I have seen various numbers 4-5hrs depending on the cannister but rated at 1.35 lpm (more realistic but still no one could manage this for that long)

even some older designs were even more cautious in the ratings.. for example the ut-240 (240 mins at 1.8 lpm)

The problem can come in if people start pushing the rated life.. most CCR divers average somewhere around 1.0 lpm of co2 production, scalling this to a "3 hour scrubber @ 1.6lpm) brings the projected bed lif to approx 5 hours... DO I recommend this NO, but its used to show how much padding the scrubber ratings have..

Also the scrubbers work better shallow than they do at depth so the time when the scrubber is most used(chemically), is when you are shallow doing your stops AND usually at rest producing very little CO2.

I have heard a few divers note they had trouble getting off the loop... I had 2 MINOR incidents (both recognized very early). I had no problems flushing the loop, and never had to abandon the loop..

I'm not going to get into detail but both were my fault and training and experienced made it a non issue.... If I had to bail I dont believe I would have had a problem doing it since I had no problems doing a complete loop flush..

MOST rb diver plan all dives with proper bailout but there is a faction thats not mainstream (I liken it to DIR attitudes but exactly opposite).. The aplinest belives you dive with the absolute minimum (that usually is only onboard bailout).. I am dead against this attitude, it almost every case..

If I'm doing a 50 ft reef dive with no deco, the onboard cylinders may be enough, and I may go without it if the situation merits/calls for it.. but on 99.9% of all RB dives I have full independent bailout and preach it..

 

[cornfed]

saturated once bubbled...

Example: I was in the bahamas diving a huge ledge off bimini. I got shorntess of breath and all the symptoms, I did a flush and bailed out to my stage(always carry one). On the surface I discovered my scrubber settled on the long ride to the dive site. . 100% diver error.

That was my orignial point , a small problem (bumpy ride) had large consiquences (increased risk and aborted dive). It was diver error but the system made this error easier.

Cornfed

 

[cdiver2]

Hi cornfed I know its geting of the subject but I just had to say I love your sense of humor

 

[saturated]

That was my orignial point , a small problem (bumpy ride) had large consiquences (increased risk and aborted dive). It was diver error but the system made this error easier.

Actually the system, in which I include my brain. Broke down because of my loss of focus. In even the most basic of training you should be tought to check the scrubber after a long trip. Not that I did'nt know that, I just did'nt do it. That is the type of behavior that causes problems.

This type of incident is why most breather guys take accident reports with a grain of salt. Most of us agree that they are indeed very reliable, otherwise we would'nt dive them; however, we also know that they dont forgive stupidity. As is the case with many things in life.