DIR wars...Is it the name?

[MXGratefulDiver]

I should point out that the "organization" is GUE, and George Irvine, the person you seem to be singling out, officially has nothing to do with them AFAIK. You'd never hear a GUE instructor say that sort of thing.

Well, to be fair ... the first time I read The Fundamentals of Better Diving I thought, in many places, that JJ was being a bit over the top in terms of putting down traditional dive training. It put me off a bit, and made me leery of what was being said.

However, once I learned more ... and developed a bit of context around the topic ... I saw the same passages as a lot less provocative than they at-first appeared.

"The Attitude" is more a by-product of people having their ego trashed during a 3-day intro course ... fortunately it's just a temporary infection, and usually cured with further training. I've only met a very few experienced DIR-trained divers who come across as anything other than mentor-like when dealing with less trained or less experienced divers. And for the most part, those with "The Attitude" would have a similar attitude no matter what endeavor they were engaged in.

DIR is just a name ... but perhaps there was a consideration when it was chosen that a bit of provocation was what it would take to get noticed in the industry.

If so, it was a stroke of genius ... I'm certain JJ and company couldn't afford to buy the sort of publicity they've received because of the name they chose for their "product".

And as to the popular misconception that it's about "you're either DIR or you're a stroke" ... someone needs to read the definition of stroke. You might be surprised to learn that it's entirely possible to not take DIR training and still not qualify for the title ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[novadiver]

Novadiver, you never cease to surprise me.

I just try and hold the light so everyone can see.

 

[Albion]

The GUE org. has some top of the line people working for them. I've found them to be honest and helpfull ( Dave and Wendy). It's the elitist divers who get their C-cards that I have a problem with. It's like saying " I payed more for college so I'm smarter". When in reality "elitism is just a group of people that think their better than everyone else"

Don't get me wrong, I'm an elitist about some things also. I'm a registered republican and I think most dems are lazy ,no good, communists trying to bring down this country. But do I go around , on the internet saying this? NO. Do I go around saying that"I have more respect for my south American house cleaning crew (very hard workers) than I do for lazy American Union workers?NO .I just keep this to myself, because all of those people would be offended.

The point is , if you think being DIR makes you something special, well good for you. Don't try and be my hero because you'll be disappointed.

In conclusion: It's not the dive organazation that matters ,It's the diver. And some divers are going to be better than others, But even bad divers have the right to dive.

NOVADIVER has approved of this message!

good post, says it all.

I think some of the eliteist ones spout the gospel without knowing 100% why they are saying it and thats the problem and why they are easyish to spot, and make for good sport

 

[Diver0001]

I don't know anyone who believes that except people who are rabidly anti-DIR for whatever reason. I've never met a DIR diver who feels that way, and the attitude you describe is rare online, and nonexistant on the three major boards, including this one.

It's threads like this that get people riled up. Here's my prediction: DIR guys will come and calmly explain their case, and they will get attacked, called names, and accused of calling everyone else strokes.

It wasn't always like this. By 1994 the rhetoric on both sides was flying in huge quantities and any kind of reasoned communication looked totally unachievable.

Clearly, George Irvine did his part to fire up the troops and his style of online communication was something that a lot of DIR divers emulated to the great detriment of the entire movement. The calm after the storm you're talking about is a recent phenomenon, I think, since George Irvine has taken a back seat.

R..

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Don't get me wrong, I'm an elitist about some things also. I'm a registered republican and I think most dems are lazy ,no good, communists trying to bring down this country. But do I go around , on the internet saying this? NO. Do I go around saying that"I have more respect for my south American house cleaning crew (very hard workers) than I do for lazy American Union workers?NO .I just keep this to myself, because all of those people would be offended.

NOVADIVER has approved of this message!

Well ... I'm not offended ... but I am going to tell you that you're skirting the ToS ... on a couple of counts ... and if you don't continue to keep those opinions to yourself we're going to have a little chat that has nothing whatsoever to do with your views on diving.

Political opinons have a place ...but not on ScubaBoard. Take it to one of the other 124,572,245 internet boards out there where political put-downs are welcomed ... they're not here.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Rick Murchison]

I don't know anyone who believes that except people who are rabidly anti-DIR for whatever reason. I've never met a DIR diver who feels that way, and the attitude you describe is rare online, and nonexistant on the three major boards, including this one.
It's threads like this that get people riled up. Here's my prediction: DIR guys will come and calmly explain their case, and they will get attacked, called names, and accused of calling everyone else strokes.

Hmmm..... we'll see...

Fine, we'll call it Doing It Rite and everyone will be happy!

Betcha can't get that through the GUE bubbas. Although "Rite" is a far more accurate word...

I figure that if folks are so tender emotionally that they get rattled by a simple acronym then they probably don't have what it takes to be DIR anyway...

And I figure that if folks are so tender emotionally that they can't abandon a simple acronym that's condescending and irritating to everyone else that they are arrogant beyond the pale...

Albion, you may be a fine diver, but I promise DIR-F will still kick your butt and make you realize how good you really *aren't*.

And you know this because????
I do believe y'all have made the point.
Rick

 

[msandler]

It's threads like this that get people riled up. Here's my prediction: DIR guys will come and calmly explain their case, and they will get attacked, called names, and accused of calling everyone else strokes.

your prediction - lol. You have done a great job (in this thread) of demonstrating what you predicted - just the reverse however. Also a decent job at demonstrating Hypocrisy.

Personally I think DIR has summarized some great principles. I am probably 75% DIR (which means I am not DIR at all). Though the name may be fitting, the representation of "its" members would suggest it is an acronym for;
Do It Regardless or Dictate It Right

I am never surprised to witness (on the DIR forum) so many people confused about DIR gear rigging or people blindly emulating DIR gear config and other principles. For example, "what size bicycle inner tube should I get for my backup light?" Then there are those that are just having difficulty with a specific item be it an inner-tube or difficulty in getting to a pressure gauge. How is it "better" when conforming adds diver stress? -Don't answer, I know those people are DIW. What about "reverse profile" diving... lets not even go here.
I knew Irving (before many of you had a C-card). GI would be bashing away on email lists more than a decade ago, trying to get people to be "open" to considering HIS principles. Honestly, lots of great advice from someone who has achieved amazing accomplishments. Also plenty of flames to match and lots of criticism of divers the likes of; Mount,Gentry,Gilliam,Exley,Stone,etc. At least Irving himself walks-the-talk! To bad DIR of present has lost the ability to self examine as was once asked of "other" divers in the early days of WKPP.
DIRers here are very defensive and closed minded. Oddly, many of the more verbal "DIR" divers are also some of the most inexperienced (sounding) divers I have ever come across. Its no wonder why so many chime in "wrong forum" if you post the slightest hint of DIR contrary comment regardless of how sincere you try to be. Double standards. For the record, I would choose to dive with someone who has "real dive" experience over someone carrying a DIRF card. DIRF divers also seem to be willing to offer more opinions and recommendations for dives they have no actual experience doing than divers who are not proclaimed DIR.

For the record... My issues are with attitudes. I support much of the DIR principles (I am just not a lemming, been diving "technically" (never liked that word by the way) for a very long time and adopt practices that suit the needs of a particular dive), and I also believe the DIRf course would be an excellent choice for a novice or intermediate diver to take.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Clearly, George Irvine did his part to fire up the troops and his style of online communication was something that a lot of DIR divers emulated to the great detriment of the entire movement. The calm after the storm you're talking about is a recent phenomenon, I think, since George Irvine has taken a back seat.

R..

I see it more as a sign that the "movement" is maturing ... kind've like watching a teen-ager hit his 20's ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The name is condescending and arrogant but my main issue with it are the attitude, writings and words of the people up top of the organisation.

Do it this way, everyone else is wrong and going to die basically.

Remove those egos and it maybe less inflammatory.

(I also disagree with the one size fits all idea but thats a different thread).

Not posting any more on here as this will degenerate into a flame war.

I agree. Given that people naturally tend to associate things in opposing pairs "Doing it Right" logically and clearly implies that everything else is "Doing it Wrong". A clear, and I feel intentional, statement as the founders are probably psychologically wired fairly close to the norm - if not that's an even bigger concern.

The problem is also not just with the message sent by those at the top:

Albion, you may be a fine diver, but I promise DIR-F will still kick your butt and make you realize how good you really *aren't*.

Translation - no matter how good you are, if you aren't DIR you are not in fact any good at all. Jonathan's guarateeing this and he's never even seen me in the water. I'd call that pure arrogance.

...And this year has been pretty heavy on the references in the nature of "On the ascent, XXX lost site of his buddy. 30 minutes later YYY was found on the bottom and pronounced DOA at the hospital. YYY has been diving for years and was a very experienced diver."

Now of course everyone will want to twist my words and say that I'm implying you will all die. I'm just saying that it only takes one time. I've done a lot of stupid things in my lifetime [and still do], but I try to at least stack the deck in my favor as much as possible.

No word twisting needed here. You ARE clearly implying it only takes once to end up dead and that not being DIR increases the risk of dying.

With maybe a very slight twist, I might add you clearly denegrate the value of exeperience compared to the value of taking a DIR-F course.

...Seems to me that many people who criticize DIR whine about their individual preferences. There is inherent safety in a well thought out diving system that is standardized. My familiarity with the system allows me to spot and cope with my DIR diving buddy's problems underwater.

Seems like the critics I know personally have too much pride to start over in DIRF.

The first part stresses the team approach and the values of conforming to the group and demeans those who may hold independence, personal choice and flexibility in higher regard

The second part again clearly denegrates the value of experience and clearly implies that membership in the group and acceptance of the group values makes you superior to a diver who is perhaps much more experienced.

My take on this is that it has little do to with diving and everything to do with differring value systems and the need for some people to find quick acceptance in a group and quick affirmation of their skills and abilities as a diver. This works fine as long as the false sense of security and perhaps arrogance do not get the diver in way over their head. When things get tough, Bull$hit, slogans, and a lot of C-cards without a commensurate amount of real world experience is not going cut it.

 

[msandler]

...Don't get me wrong, I'm an elitist about some things also. I'm a registered republican and I think most dems are lazy ,no good, communists trying to bring down this country. But do I go around , on the internet saying this? NO. Do I go around saying that"I have more respect for my south American house cleaning crew (very hard workers) than I do for lazy American Union workers?NO .I just keep this to myself, because all of those people would be offended.

The point is , if you think being DIR makes you something special, well good for you. Don't try and be my hero because you'll be disappointed.

NOVADIVER has approved of this message!

LOL