DIR Standard for Octo Necklace & Primary Reg Colors?

[PfcAJ]

The 500se and Oceanic Omegas are downstream and much less prone to freeflow than any other style of regulator fwiw.

Good to know about them being downstream regs.

To the OP, another thing youll find with DIR is that we tend to keep things pretty standardized. I wouldn't be surprised if some folks out there wouldn't know how to purge one of those side exhaust thingamabobs.

 

[tbone1004]

poseidon Cyklons are downstream as well just have a stupid high IP, and despite the Jetstream and X-stream being upstream designs, they are actually better for first stage IP creep failures than standard downstreams. The OPV in the first stage will blow off keeping the IP going to the inflator and second stages down where it is supposed to be so while you still feather the valve, the regs won't freeflow in your face so you breathe off of them normally and you can still use your inflators without risking damage to the valves. That's the one thing that most Poseidon bashers don't understand, all they ever hear is "upstreams fail closed, so I wouldn't ever want one" well yes, technically they do fail closed, but the first stage won't let the IP get high enough for them to close due to the OPV, so it's a nonissue. Still can't remove the lids to clean them if stuff gets clogged up in there, and it's not a "normal" reg, but the thing that scares most divers off is a moot point.

 

[cozumelkeith]

Most DIR guys (myself included) just use a normal reg and a normal hose for both the primary and backup (backup is the one on the bungee). No special colors or anything.

The color thing is mostly to make the octo reg visible. Since we don't use an 'octo' in the traditional sense, there's no need for the color. The primary is very easy to see since its in your mouth and there are bubbles coming out of it.

Getting two regs that are the same for your primary and backup is an ok idea, but I'm personally a fan of having a simple, non-balanced non-adjustable backup reg and a balanced-adjustable as the primary. Something like a Scubapro R190 on the bungee and a Scubapro G250 on the long hose.

Don't mean to thread highjack, but AJ, could you speak to the pros/cons of the balanced primary/unbalanced backup vs. balanced primary/balanced backup and why you go with the former?

Thanks!

 

[tbone1004]

not AJ, but the thought is that you have a more robust simple design of the regulator with less to go wrong, they're also cheaper. They don't breathe as easily, so if you're quite deep, sub 150', or the IP coming to it changes slightly the cracking pressure and inhalation effort is increased. The balanced second stages just breathe better due to the balancing mechanism helping with the cracking pressure. The increased depth has nothing to do with depth compensation, just acknowledging that it is harder to breather at depth due to gas density.

Now, going back to the 90's when that statement from GUE was originally written, and even back to the early 2000's, balanced second stages were significantly more expensive than unbalanced and they were also both abundant, and both of those factors weighed heavily into that statement being made. Comparable to the argument against dive computers. Technology has caught up. Balanced second stages are the norm, and while unbalanced seconds aren't necessarily hard to find, the cost has balanced out and high quality balanced second stages are much easier to find.

A lot of DIR guys are scubapro fans obvious by the fact that Halcyons regs are blatant copies of the Mk25, S600, and R190 *which are the regs pictures in the DIR book*, but looking at Apeks, all of their second stages are balanced, and this holds true with quite a few manufacturers. If you look at the DIR book, the secondary is a Scubapro R190 which is was upgraded as a R195 *is now reversible*, and is unbalanced. You don't see many of them, and for the slight price increase to go to a high end balanced, I'll take the extra comfort and ease of breathing during an OOA situation. Plus it means only one parts kit for them.

SP S600-$400 ish
R195-$200 ish
that justifies getting one of each

Apeks XTX50-$200 ish
no reason not to get the Apeks, just as high quality reg, balanced, adjustable, very similar to the S600, just doesn't have the added cost for being a Scubapro

 

[cozumelkeith]

Thanks. Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking - that perhaps the cost/reliability gap between balanced/unbalanced had closed some since those suggestions were written. Seems to me it's slightly simpler design that theoretically is less likely to fail vs. increased comfort/not having to potentially have separate sets of spares/parts. I have two XTX50s, no complaints so far.

 

[kathydee]

I have two MK25's and two S600's (balanced second stages). There are good arguments for using either the balanced or unbalanced for the back-up.

If you plan to transition towards doubles you may consider ease of hose routing from the regulator. Some models (such as the MK25) route easier for doubles.

Color doesn't matter, unless you want to coordinate just for fun .

 

[PfcAJ]

not AJ, but the thought is that you have a more robust simple design of the regulator with less to go wrong, they're also cheaper. They don't breathe as easily, so if you're quite deep, sub 150', or the IP coming to it changes slightly the cracking pressure and inhalation effort is increased. The balanced second stages just breathe better due to the balancing mechanism helping with the cracking pressure. The increased depth has nothing to do with depth compensation, just acknowledging that it is harder to breather at depth due to gas density.

Now, going back to the 90's when that statement from GUE was originally written, and even back to the early 2000's, balanced second stages were significantly more expensive than unbalanced and they were also both abundant, and both of those factors weighed heavily into that statement being made. Comparable to the argument against dive computers. Technology has caught up. Balanced second stages are the norm, and while unbalanced seconds aren't necessarily hard to find, the cost has balanced out and high quality balanced second stages are much easier to find.

A lot of DIR guys are scubapro fans obvious by the fact that Halcyons regs are blatant copies of the Mk25, S600, and R190 *which are the regs pictures in the DIR book*, but looking at Apeks, all of their second stages are balanced, and this holds true with quite a few manufacturers. If you look at the DIR book, the secondary is a Scubapro R190 which is was upgraded as a R195 *is now reversible*, and is unbalanced. You don't see many of them, and for the slight price increase to go to a high end balanced, I'll take the extra comfort and ease of breathing during an OOA situation. Plus it means only one parts kit for them.

Gas density is not an issue at all. We introduce so much helium so early that any argument about increased density is nullified. It really has to do with less chance of freeflow and less parts = less chance of something breaking.

Halcyon regs are G250v and R390 copies, not s600 and r190, although the internals are pretty much the same in the r190 and the Halcyon unbalanced reg.

poseidon Cyklons are downstream as well just have a stupid high IP, and despite the Jetstream and X-stream being upstream designs, they are actually better for first stage IP creep failures than standard downstreams. The OPV in the first stage will blow off keeping the IP going to the inflator and second stages down where it is supposed to be so while you still feather the valve, the regs won't freeflow in your face so you breathe off of them normally and you can still use your inflators without risking damage to the valves. That's the one thing that most Poseidon bashers don't understand, all they ever hear is "upstreams fail closed, so I wouldn't ever want one" well yes, technically they do fail closed, but the first stage won't let the IP get high enough for them to close due to the OPV, so it's a nonissue. Still can't remove the lids to clean them if stuff gets clogged up in there, and it's not a "normal" reg, but the thing that scares most divers off is a moot point.

The OPV thing is one of the worst parts. If a reg is freeflowing (even a little, which is how they mostly start), having it leaking behind your head doesn't really give you immediate info as to which reg is the issue.

 

[tbone1004]

thanks for corrections, like I said, I don't know the Scubapro model numbers and thought those were the right numbers.

True about you guys putting so much helium in early, wish it was a reasonable practice now with He prices where they are

If you check your IP before each dive, which you should be doing as part of prechecks, it's very rare that you'll see a HP seat fail mid-dive. It's close to negligible, they really don't just start having IP creep while you're using them. That said, any regulator bubble action can't be diagnosed immediately by bubbles, if you have a hose O-ring start going, you can't see or feel that. With the Poseidons though you can actually feel in the hoses if the OPV goes. It's weird but the poseidon specific hoses you can actually feel each breath and when the OPV's let go you can feel it because the second stages are so sensitive to IP. With any pilot valve second stage, as the IP climbs, the reg is harder to crack, so if it's on your primary reg you can feel it when you breathe. If it's your left post it's not really possible to diagnose but unless you're somewhere quite noisy you can hear the bubble stream coming out. I'm in sidemount now so it's a moot point for me, but with proper equipment checks HP seat failures shouldn't occur mid dive. They only happen when people don't do thorough prechecks and check the IP on their first stages prior to getting in.

 

[ScubaInChicago]

Hi Jon,

If your interested in gear configuration and need a hand setting anything up, or even do some skills dives, I would be happy to meet with you and go over things. I'm in SW Chicago and about 45 min from DRIS, feel free to PM me.

Dan

 

[ucfdiver]

If you check your IP before each dive, which you should be doing as part of prechecks

by this standard, I must be living life on the edge.