DIR reg's

[Scubakevdm]

G200.

 

[dsteding]

By the way, I'm not trying to start a war or hijack this thread, I'm just a bit confused as to why a thread requesting information would be closed rather than educating the poster, or requesting they try their question in another forum.

Lots of threads in the DIR forum are closed once the question is answered, or if it isn't a DIR question. We have a history of trolls in here, and the mods tend to want to keep the chatter to a minimum.

 

[RTodd]

So what is wrong with the newer Zeagle regs. I haven't had any problems with my envoy deluxes.

I would assume that dive rite, oxycheq, scubamax and aqualung would be dir compliant.

I don't have any idea who makes the new Zeagle regs. So I can't tell you if they work. There really isn't a list of DIR regs, just attributes you want in a reg. A proven track record is a big one. I am really not up to speed on exactly who is making the other regs you have listed so maybe someone that keeps up with this stuff and knows what we are looking for in a DIR reg can chime in. But, historcally, the regs made for these manufacturers are too much of a compromise and aren't recommended. As has been stated numerous times before, the cost delta between one of these regs and the highly recommended regs is less than the gas costs on a fairly basic mix dive. In the long run, it is easier to just buy the well known quantity in the first place rather than waiting until the cheaper reg blows a dive for you.

 

[Boneisland Photo]

Scubakevdm- Is the G200 a DIR approved 2nd stage. If not, why? Thanks for the help.

 

[jeckyll]

Scubakevdm- Is the G200 a DIR approved 2nd stage. If not, why? Thanks for the help.

Did you follow the link to the GUE site? Read some of the posts that stated that there is no such thing as an "approved" 2nd stage.

The characteristics that you should look for are on the link I provided above.

Are you looking to take any specific training to move towards DIR? If so, then I think there are more things to consider than what second stage to use.

If not, then why not just take the second stage (of the ones you own) that you enjoy breathing the best. If this is the case then I don't understand why you'd want a DIR answer?!

 

[Boneisland Photo]

I did follow the link, and I'll admit I'm a bit confused by some of the language in it. The short answer is YES, I do intend to take Fundies in the near future and I'd like to put together a singels rig toward that end. That's why I was asking my question in the DIR forum in the first place but I guess I never made that part clear... that's my fault. I just wanted to put together a rig and get used to it (since I've been diving with AGA -due to a need for coms- mask for the past few years) before taking Fundies.

 

[jeckyll]

I did follow the link, and I'll admit I'm a bit confused by some of the language in it. The short answer is YES, I do intend to take Fundies in the near future and I'd like to put together a singels rig toward that end. That's why I was asking my question in the DIR forum in the first place but I guess I never made that part clear... that's my fault. I just wanted to put together a rig and get used to it (since I've been diving with AGA -due to a need for coms- mask for the past few years) before taking Fundies.

See, that is really useful info. Now people responding will understand that you are looking to take fundies in a single and building a rig.

FWIW, my instructor didn't have many comments about the regs, I believe there were mostly Apex regs, with some Atomics. We were all in doubles, but there was no mixing and matching on the individual divers.

One of the recommendations is to wait until you get to fundies before buying a bunch of new gear as you go over the config with your instructor. The basics of what's necessary are listed here
gue.com/Training/Recreational/dirfund.html

I believe the note at the bottom of that page is particularly relevant:

Note: Prior to the commencement of class, students should consult with a GUE representative to verify equipment requirements. Whether or not a piece of equipment fulfills GUE's equipment requirement remains at the discretion of GUE and its instructor representatives. Participants are responsible for providing all equipment or for making provisions to secure the use of necessary equipment before the start of the course. In general, it is better for the student to learn while using his or her own equipment. However, students should exercise caution before purchasing new equipment to avoid acquiring substandard equipment. Please contact a GUE representative prior to making any purchases. Information about recommended equipment can be obtained from the equipment considerations section of GUE's web site.

 

[Scubakevdm]

The G200 is a high performance second stage which when adjusted correctly by the technician is identical to the G-250 (which is widely used in exploration and is very DIR) as far as the air moving through it is concerned. The only difference is that there is no adjustment knob so that the diver can increase or decrease the poppet spring load. Typically on a back up reg, this spring is loaded a little to prevent freeflows when the reg is not in use, and when the diver switches to the reg he/she backs off on the spring so that it breathes easier.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Scubakevdm- Is the G200 a DIR approved 2nd stage. If not, why? Thanks for the help.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can see where reading the linked site would not really address the question of whether the G200 is suitable or not unless you know a lot about the G200 already.

The conservative view is to have a high performance balanced second stage (like the G250) for the primary and a slightly lower performance unbalanced second stage (like the G200) as the backup. The idea is that you'd get max performance with the G250 and more reliability with the G200.

Of course some of the reasoning regarding regfulators on the site is flawed. For example, one of the most common issues with a regulator second stage is a leakimg low pressure seat due to an excessive seating groove in the LP seat. If the reg is non adjustable, you are pretty much hosed and are going to lose some gas to the slow leak. However if the reg is adjustable, you can increase spring pressure and usually stop the leak - unless you have been ignoring the leak for more than one dive and eventually run out of adjustment.

Loading the spring more initially is nt really the answer as it compromises the inhalation performance but more importantly also increases the spring pressure 24/7 and accellerates seat wear. (And for the same reason if you have an adjustable reg, store it with the knob screwed all the way out to minimize spring pressure and seat wear.)

So...this most common leak you will encounter is easily resovled in water with no tools with the "less reliable" balanced but adjustable G250 than with the supposedly "more reliable" but non adjustable G200. In addition, because the unbalanced G200 offsets all of the downstream force when the reg is pressurized with spring pressure, the spring is much stronger than with the balanced G250 - meaning the stronger spring on the G200 is more likely to result in a leaking seat in the first place. So the reliabilty argument really does not hold up in the G200/G250 comparision.

The increase in mechanical complexity of the balanced G250 poppet assembly is incredibly minor as it involves no more moving parts and only 1 more dynamic o-ring - that is in fact backed up with a totally redundant o-ring in the event it fails. I have never seen this particualat interface between poppet and balance chamber fail so any potential for dual o-ring failure is more than offset by the advantage of reduced seat wear.

Consequently, from a combined reg tech and technical diver perspective, I regard the G250 as being a more reliable choice. If you still buy greater the reliability of the unbalanced poppet argument and truly want what you feel is the best of both worlds, consider putting an unbalanced poppet G200 in your G250 which will give you the graphite cased equivalant of the older metal cased R109 Adjustable (which is not DIR as you cannot remove the purge cover without tools).

The G200 and G250 (not the newer G250HP) share the same case and with the exception of the balanced verus unbalanced poppet and adjustable versus nonadjustable air barrel, the regs are identical and the parts can be mixed and matched. Personally, I buy G200's on e-bay as they often show up in mint to excellent condition for less than $50 and I then install G250 air barrels and poppets in them creating mint to excellent condition G250's that would otherwise go for perhaps 3times the money.

I also disagree with the assumption that a higher IP in a first stage leads to more wear and in particular to more wear on the high pressure seat. It does not. In an unpressurized condition the orifice is off the seat regardless of IP or spring pressure so no wear occurs. In operation, the higher spring pressure pushing one way is what creates the higher IP pushing the other way, so the net pressure of the orifice on the seat is exactly the same (only what is exactly needed to close the valve) regardless of the IP setting.

Practically speaking, both the G200 and G250 are reliable enough and more reliable than most, so you would be fine with either a G250/G250 set up, G250/G200 set up or a G250/hybrid G250 with an unbalanced G200 poppet and spring assembly.

I won't say the same for other regulator brands and designs as some balanced second stages are overly complicated with seat saver features and other gimics that bring nothing to the dive and add unneccesary complication and failure modes.

 

[xiSkiGuy]

Is the G200 a DIR approved 2nd stage.

In so much as it is "quality" 2nd stage that can be disassembled underwater, (and has been serviced recently) sure. In fact, it is pretty similar to the unbalanced Scubapro R390 shown as an example of a backup reg on the GUE site.

Many divers prefer a high-performance, balanced, second stage as their primary regulator, and a slightly lower performance, unbalanced, second stage as their backup.6 This proven configuration gives a diver the best of both worlds.

Your G200 on a short hose attached to a MK25 or MK17 along with a balanced second (Like the G250HP or S600) on the long hose would work fine and provide a setup like the one described here.

Note that most DIR divers seem to have moved on to using balanced/adjustable 2nds for their primary and backup regs. Some common choices are Scubapro MK25/G250HPs or MK25/S600s and Apeks DS4/TX50s.

On a different note, I'm not so sure about the requirement that the reg be capable of disassembly underwater. It sounds good and I'm sure SOMEONE can pull it off, but personally I've not been able disassemble and reassemble a Scubapro S600 and get the diaphragm to seal without lowering the lever height first. Anyone know the trick to this? DA?