DIR Question
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Darnold9999
Contributor
I wouldn't underate "comfort in the water" either. If you know that you can comfortably be without air for long enough to swim 25 yards or 50 yards without fins then when it happens it you are much more likely to be able to spend a few seconds solving the problem before panic sets in and you are no longer able to solve the problem or know that you can swim 20 yards to a buddy and still have time to get their attention and their reg.
If making you swim 25 yards under water gives you nothing but this it was well worth it. However you don't need a DIR course to get it.
My NAUI course of 25 years ago gave me much more in terms of underwater comfort than even the DIR Fundys course and frankly I think that the 2 day wonder courses have created a class of diver that I have no interest in diving with. This group of divers can dive, barely, but can't swim, or can barely swim and are a danger to themselves and anyone around them in the water if anything goes wrong. Panic is something that lurks just around the corner on every dive simply because they are not comfortable in the water.
I am totally comfortable at 60 feet with scuba gear because I am totally comfortable at 60 feet without scuba gear. The difference is I get to stay there for much longer with the gear. Very few divers can say this and I think that is unfortunate.
To the OP - the little exposure to DIR I had (Fundys) led me to the conclusion that DIR wasn't for me. Not becuse of the focus on gear configuration but because I prefer to have a solo diving mindset, even when diving with a buddy. DIR is all about team diving, not gear configuration. Everything is about diving as a team. I prefer my solo mindset where self rescue is my primary focus. My buddy is a secondary resource that I don't rely on being available.
All of the DIR configuration that I saw makes sense and I have only changed one thing about my kit since the Fundies course. I clip my SPG on my left chest Dring rather than the hip Dring - I can read the guage without clipping and unclipping, this is not possible on my hip. I am sure there is a good reason for the DIR placement but the benefits of having my SPG in view without having to unclip works for me.
I did not find the Fundys course to be focused on gear choices and gear placement at all. The first night the instructor went over each person's gear, made adjustments as required and explained the reason for the adjustment or why he was leaving it the way it was. It was clear that you can dive in other configurations, but a consistent interface makes sense from a whole bunch of perspectives. I took a fair amount of abuse for my Volo fins, but it was in good fun and while I like them they are virtually impossible to back kick in and a frog kick works but not very well. Jet fins are much better for these two kicks.
There are lots of interfaces that make sense when driving a car. We have settled on a couple of them, one for driving on the right side of the road (DOR) and one for driving on the wrong side of the road. There are lots of other possible interfaces but life is so much simpler if they are consistent. As I understand it much of the DIR insistance on consistency is based on this simple fact.
If making you swim 25 yards under water gives you nothing but this it was well worth it. However you don't need a DIR course to get it.
My NAUI course of 25 years ago gave me much more in terms of underwater comfort than even the DIR Fundys course and frankly I think that the 2 day wonder courses have created a class of diver that I have no interest in diving with. This group of divers can dive, barely, but can't swim, or can barely swim and are a danger to themselves and anyone around them in the water if anything goes wrong. Panic is something that lurks just around the corner on every dive simply because they are not comfortable in the water.
I am totally comfortable at 60 feet with scuba gear because I am totally comfortable at 60 feet without scuba gear. The difference is I get to stay there for much longer with the gear. Very few divers can say this and I think that is unfortunate.
To the OP - the little exposure to DIR I had (Fundys) led me to the conclusion that DIR wasn't for me. Not becuse of the focus on gear configuration but because I prefer to have a solo diving mindset, even when diving with a buddy. DIR is all about team diving, not gear configuration. Everything is about diving as a team. I prefer my solo mindset where self rescue is my primary focus. My buddy is a secondary resource that I don't rely on being available.
All of the DIR configuration that I saw makes sense and I have only changed one thing about my kit since the Fundies course. I clip my SPG on my left chest Dring rather than the hip Dring - I can read the guage without clipping and unclipping, this is not possible on my hip. I am sure there is a good reason for the DIR placement but the benefits of having my SPG in view without having to unclip works for me.
I did not find the Fundys course to be focused on gear choices and gear placement at all. The first night the instructor went over each person's gear, made adjustments as required and explained the reason for the adjustment or why he was leaving it the way it was. It was clear that you can dive in other configurations, but a consistent interface makes sense from a whole bunch of perspectives. I took a fair amount of abuse for my Volo fins, but it was in good fun and while I like them they are virtually impossible to back kick in and a frog kick works but not very well. Jet fins are much better for these two kicks.
There are lots of interfaces that make sense when driving a car. We have settled on a couple of them, one for driving on the right side of the road (DOR) and one for driving on the wrong side of the road. There are lots of other possible interfaces but life is so much simpler if they are consistent. As I understand it much of the DIR insistance on consistency is based on this simple fact.
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To the OP,
DIR has a lot of solid experience to support what they do. They have a lot to offer any diver, DIR or not. However that being said, the exact DIR configuration is not for everyone. That is OK also.
I always suggest to anyone asking to "Try before you buy" and while I am generally discussing equipment, the same can be said for equipment. Try learning DIR from someone who can teach it. See how you like it. Please don't go in already opinionated - keep an open mind. If DIR fits, then go for it - you have your answer. If exact DIR isn't for you, fine, but you can still take away a wealth of information and techniques. It is just not DIR by DIR standards than.
My biggest problem with DIR isn't necessarily the name, though I can see where that can lead to misunderstandings, (like someone being an "Advanced Scuba Diver" after completing 9 dives), but the name calling and attitude given to those who aren't exactly DIR. This includes calling handicapped people who are unable to be strict DIR - Strokes. IMHO the ones that feel the necessity of name calling are the ones with the true handicaps. In their case it's ignorance and bigotry.
Safe Diving,
George
DIR has a lot of solid experience to support what they do. They have a lot to offer any diver, DIR or not. However that being said, the exact DIR configuration is not for everyone. That is OK also.
I always suggest to anyone asking to "Try before you buy" and while I am generally discussing equipment, the same can be said for equipment. Try learning DIR from someone who can teach it. See how you like it. Please don't go in already opinionated - keep an open mind. If DIR fits, then go for it - you have your answer. If exact DIR isn't for you, fine, but you can still take away a wealth of information and techniques. It is just not DIR by DIR standards than.
My biggest problem with DIR isn't necessarily the name, though I can see where that can lead to misunderstandings, (like someone being an "Advanced Scuba Diver" after completing 9 dives), but the name calling and attitude given to those who aren't exactly DIR. This includes calling handicapped people who are unable to be strict DIR - Strokes. IMHO the ones that feel the necessity of name calling are the ones with the true handicaps. In their case it's ignorance and bigotry.
Safe Diving,
George
Blackwood
Contributor
the post above about DIR being about the team is dead on. It's because of the cohesive team mentality that DIR is all or nothing.
That said, little technicalities such as which pocket emergency gear goes is frankly don't matter... so long as the decision is well thought out and the entire team us in board. I'd have no problem calling a dive "DIR" in which we placed utility gear in the right and emergency gear in the left, for example because we have bottles but no scooter an believe that no emergency to which the solution is kept in a pocket it so pressing that it can't wait 30 seconds for, and that the only true emergency (OOG) will take precedence over whatever we may be reaching for with the right hand.
DIR us about the big picture, not the small ones.
That said, little technicalities such as which pocket emergency gear goes is frankly don't matter... so long as the decision is well thought out and the entire team us in board. I'd have no problem calling a dive "DIR" in which we placed utility gear in the right and emergency gear in the left, for example because we have bottles but no scooter an believe that no emergency to which the solution is kept in a pocket it so pressing that it can't wait 30 seconds for, and that the only true emergency (OOG) will take precedence over whatever we may be reaching for with the right hand.
DIR us about the big picture, not the small ones.
SparticleBrane
Contributor
I'm sorry, I have to respond to this because I believe it to be inaccurate.
A "stroke" isn't someone who isn't DIR -- it's someone who is an unsafe diver and has an unsafe attitude. I know that I and many others of my friends who are GUE/DIR trained would be more than willing to dive with a handicapped diver, as long as they have a safe mindset and the conditions are right for the dive. I dive with people who aren't "strict DIR" all the time, but they have a safe mindset -- to me, that is one of the most important qualities for a diver.
Well, in my defense, Sparticle, I have to say that I finished the last breath-hold swim I did (in Cave 1) and surfaced, took about two breaths, and went down and swam back again. Is that as good as clapping?
We had to do our S-drills in Cave 1 with 15 or 20 feet of separation between us. And we did a drill of swimming farther than that, maskless, to a buddy with his back to us (also maskless) and getting gas, and then swimming back along the line. GUE does not ignore the importance of being comfortable with a regulator out of one's mouth for a significant period of time.
We had to do our S-drills in Cave 1 with 15 or 20 feet of separation between us. And we did a drill of swimming farther than that, maskless, to a buddy with his back to us (also maskless) and getting gas, and then swimming back along the line. GUE does not ignore the importance of being comfortable with a regulator out of one's mouth for a significant period of time.
SparticleBrane
Contributor
If you were an OW student in our program, we'd have someone get on your case for not clapping. Heck, we probably would have encouraged you to just turn around and to the underwater swim again instead of surfacing for air.
But obviously you're not a student and you did the swim twice, so I can't fault you. 
edit: I'll also point out that I'm just saying what our program does -- not preaching of lecturing on what I think people "should" do.
John_B
Grasshopper
I realize this is Scubaboard, not Swimboard, but...
I went from just being able to complete the un-timed 200 yd swim test for my OW class to swimming a total of 1500m/day between two to five times a week. (Generally as three sets of 10 laps or two sets of 15 laps, but I do the whole 30 lap grind at least once per week.) Obviously there was a lot that went into that change including sheer tenacity and stubbornness, but the major difference was technique which I learned in TI freestyle clinic I took last spring.
I think swimming skills are important (enough that I've dramatically improved my own swimming) but if people would look at this honestly, any of the swim tests are more about whether you can swim laps in a pool than a demonstration of the watermanship needed for scuba diving. Nobody believes the confined water skills tests in your OW class measured your ability to execute a dive in open water, do they? I think Thal maybe onto something in that its at least closer to the example. Although I know a diver/instructor with a thousand dives who never, ever freedives because he doesn't see the point of two minutes underwater vs. an hour.
I do like the way Nem edited his comment from having to swim a mile in 15 minutes to 30 minutes. Nem, what's your time for 1500m this week? Do you happen to know the FINA Olympic qualifying standards for the 1500m? Here's a hint: It was over 15 minutes. Do you know what time won the gold medal in Beijing, or what the Olympic or world records are? Yeah, I thought not.
For the most part you can get away with pull whatever crap you want like that out of your arse, but if this was a swimming board you'd have been called on that in a heartbeat. That was like saying that a fitness test should include the four-minute mile. Why stop there, why not require the 10km marathon swim in under two hours? This is further proof of why nobody should put any weight on anything Nem says. He makes it up as he goes. Where's that BS flag when I need it?
I went from just being able to complete the un-timed 200 yd swim test for my OW class to swimming a total of 1500m/day between two to five times a week. (Generally as three sets of 10 laps or two sets of 15 laps, but I do the whole 30 lap grind at least once per week.) Obviously there was a lot that went into that change including sheer tenacity and stubbornness, but the major difference was technique which I learned in TI freestyle clinic I took last spring.
I think swimming skills are important (enough that I've dramatically improved my own swimming) but if people would look at this honestly, any of the swim tests are more about whether you can swim laps in a pool than a demonstration of the watermanship needed for scuba diving. Nobody believes the confined water skills tests in your OW class measured your ability to execute a dive in open water, do they? I think Thal maybe onto something in that its at least closer to the example. Although I know a diver/instructor with a thousand dives who never, ever freedives because he doesn't see the point of two minutes underwater vs. an hour.
I do like the way Nem edited his comment from having to swim a mile in 15 minutes to 30 minutes. Nem, what's your time for 1500m this week? Do you happen to know the FINA Olympic qualifying standards for the 1500m? Here's a hint: It was over 15 minutes. Do you know what time won the gold medal in Beijing, or what the Olympic or world records are? Yeah, I thought not.
For the most part you can get away with pull whatever crap you want like that out of your arse, but if this was a swimming board you'd have been called on that in a heartbeat. That was like saying that a fitness test should include the four-minute mile. Why stop there, why not require the 10km marathon swim in under two hours? This is further proof of why nobody should put any weight on anything Nem says. He makes it up as he goes. Where's that BS flag when I need it?
Ben_ca
Contributor
I'm sorry but where did you get this?
The most vile name calling is usually found online by people who don't know the other people and who have only read about this stuff online....
dumpsterDiver
Banned
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I don't beleive this for a second! The people you train can go without air for 2 minutes while scuba diving and show no concern..confused:
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