DIR/GUE - No steel stage bottles

[Rainer]

I don't believe that's a "DIR" answer... What is the reason for the deviation? I believe deviating from the standard OOA/Sdrill procedure would create more problems... It takes a split second to fully deploy the long hose. If you start taking short cuts on these procedures it creates poor checklist discipline that will bit you in the rear later on.

It's not a short cut. If some unknown OW diver comes to me OOG, I'm probably NOT deploying my entire hose. Having him bolt out of arms reach would not be cool. Screw that. I'm grabbing hold. Different story for OOG with similarly trained teammates. "DIR" answers aren't always appropriate when you throw non-DIR divers into the mix.

 

[Tortuga68]

This is not a given. I had an OOA situation on the third dive of my certification class. The other divers were well upstream of me. I took my last breath, swam 20' against a current back to the instructor, and gave the OOA motions, then waited until she pulled the octo out of her BC pocket to give to me

Well done to you for handling the situation calmly, and having the breath to do what you did - I guess I could ask where your buddy was, why you were 20' downcurrent, and why you went OOA on your third dive, but that's not the point here

I didn't mean to imply that every diver will 'ambush' you any time they go OOA - I did specifically mention distressed divers. For certain, someone who is about to suck seawater by the time they get to you will take your primary. And so they should, for the reasons already covered

 

[Ben_ca]

It's not a short cut. If some unknown OW diver comes to me OOG, I'm probably NOT deploying my entire hose. Having him bolt out of arms reach would not be cool. Screw that. I'm grabbing hold. Different story for OOG with similarly trained teammates. "DIR" answers aren't always appropriate when you throw non-DIR divers into the mix.

Which brings us back to the point that DIR is a system that if you pick and choose bit and pieces from it it won't be as effective as it is meant to be.

 

[Rainer]

Which brings us back to the point that DIR is a system that if you pick and choose bit and pieces from it it won't be as effective as it is meant to be.

Nope. I'm pretty "fully DIR", but the system is not meant to handle random OW divers going OOG on me. You still need to remain a thinking diver. That might mean not deploying the entire long hose if you don't think the OOG diver can handle his *****.

 

[Ben_ca]

Nope.

Okey now you're confusing me

I think we're saying the same thing but you keep giving a negative reply

( I was referring to the OP mixing and matching equipment configs/procedures)

 

[grazie42]

Okey now you're confusing me

I think we're saying the same thing but you keep giving a negative reply

( I was referring to the OP mixing and matching equipment configs/procedures)

I think he means that:
1. He is "fully" DIR.
and
2. DIR is only DIR in the "DIR enviroment". Once you remove some of the building-blocks (f.e a trained, competent buddy), you need to reconsider if the "DIR answer" is still "doing it right" in the "non-DIR enviroment"...

Which is sort of what others have been infering as well. Like, dont use DIR gas logistics unless you also use DIR gas procedures(and other procedures) because they are the "whys" that make the DIR gas logistics work...

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

OK, a lot of you folks are getting caught up in minutia, and are missing the "big picture" here.

People keep focusing on the apocryphal case of the "panicked OW diver ripping the reg from your mouth". This is not the only scenario where you may unexpectedly give up your primary. In cave diving for example, we are taught that if we need to share air in a "lights out" situation, then we should find our buddy's primary "by feel" and take that. So that is actually an anticipated sort of event for a cave dive (i.e. we just "know" that it could happen), and so we plan accordingly, both mentally and in terms of our gear config. The same thing might happen in an OW setting on a limited visibility dive (night dive for example), or if the OOA diver has some visual impairment (lost mask, etc).

Also, regarding the issue of deploy vs non-deploy. There is no reason to deploy the full length of the long hose unless you need it, such as when swimming somewhere single file. Many times, an air share will commence in situations where the OOA diver is not truly out of air. A good example is picking up a stage bottle or rolling off a post or something. Admittedly, those problems could also be solved by going to the backup necklace, but so what? I am not going to chastise someone for not making the first, most obvious choice when they are OOA. If they need my primary, then I just give it to them. And if it seems prudent to deploy the full length of the long hose, then I do that. If not, then I don't.

Here's a perfect example from my own experience. I was doing a dive in Telford once where my buddy accidentally rolled off his left post. At some point during the dive, he went to check his SPG, saw that it read 0, and signaled me that he was OOA (which he wasn't actually of course, but he did not realize that at first). Almost as soon as he got my primary, he figured out what must have happened, and pointed for me to check his left post. I turned it on, and we were able to continue the dive. So in that situation, all my buddy really needed was a temporary source of gas, and there was no compelling reason to deploy the long hose.

The main thing to understand here is that for a DIR diver, losing the primary reg should be a non-event - just go to the backup on the necklace, sort out what needs to be done next, and move on.

 

[Tortuga68]

The main thing to understand here is that for a DIR diver, losing the primary reg should be a non-event - just go to the backup on the necklace, sort out what needs to be done next, and move on.

Agreed

I referred earlier to having been on both sides of a 'genuine' OOA situation (by which I mean having next to no breath left)

The time I was on the receiving side was when I was doing a valve shutdown drill during my advanced nitrox & deco procedures course - the boat crew had helpfully turned off my left post before I got into the water. Entirely my fault as I should have rechecked it myself, lesson learnt.

Anyway, during the simulation, I isolated, shut off the right post after my instructor gave me the 'SPG steady' sign, and switched to my backup after breathing my primary dry. Oops, no air. Thinking I might have switched regs when I didn't need to (it was my first valve drill), I switched back to my primary. No air there either (of course, since I now had all three valves off).

By now I was about ready to start gulping seawater, so I swam the 6' to my instructor, ripped the reg out of his mouth and immediately got happy again. Like the professional he is, he calmly switched to his backup and deployed the long hose for me.

Whilst breathing off his backgas, I thought about what had gone wrong, turned all my valves on, and switched back to my own primary. All according to plan, and a valuable lesson learnt for me.

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

Anyway, during the simulation, I isolated, shut off the right post after my instructor gave me the 'SPG steady' sign, and switched to my backup after breathing my primary dry. Oops, no air. Thinking I might have switched regs when I didn't need to (it was my first valve drill), I switched back to my primary. No air there either (of course, since I now had all three valves off).

I hate to say this, but your instructor appears to have been as much at fault here as you were, for not teaching you the correct procedure for a valve shutdown drill, and (IMO, at least) for not adequately supervising the skill as you were doing it.

GUE instructors (and possibly others as well) teach a very specific sequence for a valve shutdown exercise, that is designed to avoid exactly the situation you experienced. Furthermore, both the instructor and your student buddy should be observing you during the drill, ready to donate gas at the slightest sign of a problem. If any of those things had occurred, then you would not have found yourself in this predicament. The fact that you had to swim to your instructor and "rip the reg from his mouth" speaks volumes, and I personally recommend that you go to someone else if you decide to pursue further technical training.

If you are interested in how GUE teaches valve shutdowns, then a description of their procedure can be found here

 

[MonkSeal]

... the boat crew had helpfully turned off my left post before I got into the water. Entirely my fault as I should have rechecked it myself, lesson learnt.

To be precise it's a double fault:
- pre-dive
- pre-drill - proper sequence includes backup purge