DIR/GUE - No steel stage bottles

[DIR-Atlanta]

You mis-read the post to which you directed this response.

You're right - I missed that he was referring to a 7 foot octo, not a 7 foot hose in general. Sorry about that. My points still stand I think, just not in reference to the quoted text.

 

[Tortuga68]

In an emergency, I don't want to have to take my primary out of my mouth. That's just one more step that could go wrong. If the distressed diver pulls it out of my mouth, I'll deal with it and just go to my octo. But I don't see a reason that I need to add another step in a crisis. Hopefully if I'm doing my job as a buddy, I'll see it coming and be ready to shove the octo into his/her mouth as I'm approached

In reality (as opposed to say, PADI training), and as was alluded to by a previous poster, someone who is or thinks they are out of air WILL rip the reg right out of your mouth, and with no 'beg pardons' or hand signals either. I've been on both sides of that situation, and it's just a fact; no-one faps around looking for the octo in the 'PADI triangle' when they're distressed

As the 'donating' diver, if you have a proper hogarthian rig with your secondary on a short hose bungied under your neck, this won't create a problem for you

So, as was mentioned earlier, the long hose should be on the reg in your mouth, not on your secondary


BTW, don't be put off by the occasional harsh response; this is the DIR forum, and you'll get that

 

[Ben_ca]

For example, and I know this is heresy in this forum, I choose to put my long hose on my octo. In an emergency, I don't want to have to take my primary out of my mouth. That's just one more step that could go wrong. If the distressed diver pulls it out of my mouth, I'll deal with it and just go to my octo. But I don't see a reason that I need to add another step in a crisis. Hopefully if I'm doing my job as a buddy, I'll see it coming and be ready to shove the octo into his/her mouth as I'm approached.

But are you sure that octo is working?

By donating the octo you aren't sure.... You might have tested it at the begining of the dive but do you know if it'll work right now? The few seconds after your buddy get's bug eyed and his cheeks sink in?

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

But from my POV much of the DIR is based on doing cave diving. I'm purely open water, so I adapt what makes sense for me (after talking with folks much more experienced that I).

Diving is diving. I am a cave diver and an OW diver. I prefer to use the same or similar gear configurations for both. That reduces the number of variables that I have to consider in an emergency.

I choose to put my long hose on my octo. In an emergency, I don't want to have to take my primary out of my mouth. ... If the distressed diver pulls it out of my mouth, I'll deal with it and just go to my octo.

As several people have pointed out, in an actual emergency, you may not be given the choice of which reg you donate. If the OOA diver is relatively calm, then it won't really matter which reg you give them - they will accept either. If a panicked diver does an "ambush OOA" however, then you are taking the primary out of your mouth (or having it taken for you), whether you want that or not.

The DIR philosophy in this instance is predicated on the concept of "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst." To our way of thinking, it is much easier to successfully deal with the worst case scenario if you assume a priori that that is what will happen.

 

[RTodd]

There was fatality at Jackson Blue .....

My recollection is that one of the contributing factors in that particular incident was that the divers were trying to apply some of the WKPP safety bottle and scootering procedures that they had read about on the Internet, without necessarily having a complete understanding of what to do or how. They had the right idea in that they were actually trying to make their diving "safer" - just did not have the experience to think things all the way through.

I am not sure if RTodd is referring to that one - his response seems to imply a multiple fatality, so I don't know for certain. Perhaps he will elaborate.

I don't remember all of the details of the JB incident but it is a great example. The divers carried "safeties" to the stoplight or maybe a bit further, but never breathed them. I don't think they had another stage but if they did, it was breathed and dropped here. Then, they proceeded to breathe backgas. I don't think the scooter redundancy was appropriate either. So, when the dive went sideways because they were diving beyond their experience, rather than having full back gas to deal with the situation, they had less than 2/3rds of their backgas left and a safety that was fairly close to the entrance and way out of reach. This isn't remotely how DIR uses stages.

The DIR method of going to the end of the line at JB is two stages, breathed to half plus 200 or so and not touching backgas. Plus, backup scooters. You always keep all of your reserve gas with you. Safetires are used in very rare situations such as in the WKP where full 104s aren't a big enough safety margin.

 

[RTodd]

...., I choose to put my long hose on my octo. In an emergency, I don't want to have to take my primary out of my mouth. That's just one more step that could go wrong. .....

Take up golf instead of diving if you are so worried about having your reg out of your mouth for a few seconds that you don't want to make sure you always deliver a functioning reg to an out of gas diver. The extra few seconds it will take to figure out that you have handed off a non-functioning backup is likely to get the OOA diver killed.

If you inist on continuing to dive. I would suggest asking your questions in the Hogarthian forum. You aren't going to like the answers you get here and the responses will only continue to get harsher as those trying to help you get more and more frustrated.

 

[b1gcountry]

In reality [...] someone who is or thinks they are out of air WILL rip the reg right out of your mouth, and with no 'beg pardons' or hand signals either.
[...]no-one faps around looking for the octo in the 'PADI triangle' when they're distressed

This is not a given. I had an OOA situation on the third dive of my certification class. The other divers were well upstream of me. I took my last breath, swam 20' against a current back to the instructor, and gave the OOA motions, then waited until she pulled the octo out of her BC pocket to give to me.

I've been helping some OW/AOW classes to get my DM (a class I regret taking, but now just want to get it finished.) I have seen a few students forget to grab hold of one another until the reg starts to pull our of the OOA divers mouth. For two people with zero Buoyancy control, it's probably better to have them on a shorter leash.

PADI is a holistic system too: You assume all divers are inept, and everything falls into place from there

Tom

 

[orange_diver]

The nice thing about the long hose is that you don't HAVE to donate the whole length. If you feel the need to control the OOA diver's buoyancy, you can leave part of the hose tucked under the can light and grab ahold of him if you need to. If you are dealing with a calm OOA diver, flick of the wrist and s/he can have a much more comfortable ascent.

 

[rjack321]

For example, and I know this is heresy in this forum, I choose to put my long hose on my octo. In an emergency, I don't want to have to take my primary out of my mouth. That's just one more step that could go wrong. If the distressed diver pulls it out of my mouth, I'll deal with it and just go to my octo. But I don't see a reason that I need to add another step in a crisis. Hopefully if I'm doing my job as a buddy, I'll see it coming and be ready to shove the octo into his/her mouth as I'm approached.

Many of the gear concepts are great along with the minimalist approach and the general philosophy of safety first and forement. These I buy into completely. I believe that an open ocean diver can learn a lot from DIR, but it takes a filter. If I were diving in overhead, I'd look at it differently.

Thanks again for the insights.

PS> I've driven nuclear submarines for a living so I understand the value of redundacy, safety and training.

You've gotten some good feedback here already... Taking your primary reg out of your mouth and putting your bungied backup in should be a "non-event", like boringly casual. If its not, you need to build the skills until it is. It doesn't matter if you're in 20ft of water or 400ft, cave, whatever.

Don't try to solve your skill issue by changing gear and or avoiding your buddy when he/she is the absolutely most vulnerable (OOA).

 

[Ben_ca]

The nice thing about the long hose is that you don't HAVE to donate the whole length. If you feel the need to control the OOA diver's buoyancy, you can leave part of the hose tucked under the can light and grab ahold of him if you need to. If you are dealing with a calm OOA diver, flick of the wrist and s/he can have a much more comfortable ascent.

I don't believe that's a "DIR" answer... What is the reason for the deviation? I believe deviating from the standard OOA/Sdrill procedure would create more problems... It takes a split second to fully deploy the long hose. If you start taking short cuts on these procedures it creates poor checklist discipline that will bit you in the rear later on.

For example, and I know this is heresy in this forum, I choose to put my long hose on my octo. In an emergency, I don't want to have to take my primary out of my mouth

Don't worry about having your primary out of your mouth... You'll have the rest of your life to get a reg back in it