can others see into this sub-forum without belonging? If not it wouldn't be a bad idea even though there isnt a ton of activity. The little activity we do have here isnt bad and does provide some good stuff without a ton of noise.
DIR Forum
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lamont
Contributor
Can we just rename the DIR forum to "i maybe took a DIR class but I don't actually dive with a GUE/UTD approach so i'm going to tell you about my way of diving instead" forum?
It would probably be more accurate that way.
It would probably be more accurate that way.
I thought the original purpose of the two forums was to permit some (civilized) discussion of DIR procedures as opposed to alternatives in the open forum, and to get the DIR answers -- where there are answers, or at least DIR-educated options, where the answers aren't clearcut -- in the Practitioners forum. But a lot of DIR-curious people don't opt into the Practitioners forum, which means they ask their questions in the open forum . . . and by its rules, non-DIR answers, and argument about the DIR answers, are permitted there. I don't know what the solution is, but moving the honest question threads in here (and PMing the OP, with instructions on how to opt-in) might be the best strategy.
I would have been perfectly willing to have helped moderate here (and still am) but I think I wasn't viewed as having sufficient credentials to do it, at the time when the moderators were picked.
I would have been perfectly willing to have helped moderate here (and still am) but I think I wasn't viewed as having sufficient credentials to do it, at the time when the moderators were picked.
Only one forum is needed. The problem is that the likes of Larry "DA AquaWTF" and Phil "Thalwhatever" need to be weeded out from posting since it is pretty clear that they are here just trolling. However, from what I understand now, whoever mods the DIR forum can't exclude the worst offenders since they are or were mods. With proper powers of modding, the DIR forum could work as per the sticky-thingy.
You didn't.
I also offered to mod (just last week) because I thought there is no way this should be all put on Lamont. But after seeing the political nonsense that goes on with SB I figgered that I don't care enough what goes on here to commit my time only to end up banging my head against a wall of trollmods.
As I type, my attention is drawn to the heading DIR Practitioners Zone A sanctuary for the DIR faithful, non-DIR discussions will not be tolerated.
"The faithful?" What is the definition of "the faithful?" Is it those who are new DIR divers and they are convinced they will never disobey a tenet passed down from GUE or UTD HQ because those on top are truly looking out for their safety and well-being? Or, is it those who dive DIR, see it for what it is and do not always tow the party line and "sin" in some ways. I have been wreck diving with one of the best WKPP support divers (Tech 2/Cave 2) who was wreck diving solo, while I had my GUE-F girlfriend as my buddy. That diver would hold more credibility on a board such as this, but while having made the decision to be involved in an organization (two, really) that does not support solo diving, that diver chooses to violate the rules, yet in public, would lie about it to remain in the organization. Divers such as myself, having taken 4 complete GUE courses, yet will admit to doing things other ways, lose credibility in boards when all we are doing is having the courage to admit that we don't always obey the rules. Believe me, the rules are fractured in those most grievous ways by the most credible DIR practitioners, but by keeping quiet maintain deniability. I would say that the newest DIR diver is more "faithful" than those who have most of the answers because those with the answers don't always practice what they preach.
Like any religion or philosophy, the purity of the faith or the belief is often blemished by real-world politics and actions. Even the most well-intentioned people in power cannot keep personal weaknesses, petty personal disputes, and other negatives which impact decision-making out of the game. The Greek philosophers, the early Christian Church, and those in power to state what is and is not the DIR way all have had to face the challenges of humanity meets philosophy meets belief.
If the faithful want to know what DIR is at any given moment, there is only one person to ask and that would be Jarrod Jablonski, since GUE has the ultimate "street cred" on the subject and Jarraod presides over it. Even the top GUE instructors don't always know what DIR is until it is voted upon. A few times each year, GUE has meetings of its top instructors, quality control, board and training committee members to discuss everything related to GUE and DIR. Changes are discussed among the members the same way that a thread unravels information. Maybe the issue is crotch D-rings: in or out? Maybe it is the issue of mask straps being worn over or under the hood? Maybe the issue is training standards: Should there be a gap course between GUE-F and Tech 1? Maybe the issue is a change of standard gases or the procedures for rescuing an unconscious diver. Whatever the issue, the members present their cases for their beliefs on a given subject, most of whom truly believe they are correct about what he or she believes because they are DIR instructors, put a lot of thought into their opinions, and have diving experience to back up their opinions. Once views are presented, the members will vote on what course of action will be taken in the future. The vote is probably almost invariably slanted in the direction JJ would like it to go. Sometimes the way it goes is based genuinely upon a safety concern and other times, something may just be decided based upon the way JJ or another top dog likes to do it despite evidence to the contrary, and other times excellent diving practices are dummied down for students and training, but still used by the top divers on real dives.
There are two DIR's. There is the DIR that is practiced by the top divers of GUE in their real diving and there is the DIR that is passed to students in training that contains a certain amount of C.Y.A. because divers who get injured as a result of training accidents tend to seek legal restitution. Some things are made easier for training purposes when, in reality, a true DIR diver with skill and intelligence would be better off doing something one way that is no longer or never was DIR - not because it was wrong, but because other factors got in the way of approving possibly a better or even best solution.
I know it is frustrating for the new DIR practitioner who hungers for information to find it. Even if you asked a GUE instructor, he or she may need to give you "the party line" answer knowing that there is a better, safer way that may have been shot down. Having friends in the inner sanctums of GUE and UTD for many years, and having friends who left GUE, has allowed me the unique position of being the guy who hears the venting, the crying into the beer stories, and the he said/she said issues they take home from work. I share the same with them about my issues. Basically, the industry insiders gripe to one another because significant others don't want to hear it any more, our bosses don't want to hear it, our co-workers might be friends or enemies, but our friends in other agencies - "the bad guys" are the real sanity check.
Philosophies, by their nature, tend to generate debate. The Greeks, the founders of modern Western philosophy, understood and welcomed it. The Socratic method is an example of necessary and healthy debate. DIR is a philosophy. However, GUE is an organization which sometimes is unable to separate itself from real-world issues when trying to stay true to philosophy. I'm sure there are many things that a guy like JJ with his experience, knowledge and passions for both diving and education would love to share with every DIR diver, but cannot, due to his role of protector of an organization that must guard itself daily from legal concerns.
My very first introduction to technical diving was DIR and GUE a decade ago. In that time, I've seen many changes to lots of small picture matters and just a few big ones. Some have been improvements while others have not. DIR for the cold water diver has improved. Some training standards have not and some things have been dummied down. Many of the changes were legal, not philosophically-based or made with lesser skilled divers in mind. Everything from the size of snaps, to lockdown screws on reels, to whether or not to finger tighten hoses and second stages, to how to tie back up lights, to crotch D-rings in or out, to ... you name it gets changed the same as corporate procedures.
In light of this, the only way for DIR divers to really know what is DIR is to have an official memo. The DIR divers that lurk or participate in these boards may have been DIR divers since the mid-1990's or may have just passed GUE-F last weekend. Those who have been around a long time have seen changes and have not applied them to real dives. How many old guys switched their dive planning to GUE-EDGE from SADDDDDD? Only if taking continuing education, I'll bet! If not sootering, my crotch D-ring gets tucked under the strap. Principle of primacy from 1999 and I don't care if it is a convenient temporary attachment point. My pockets are off-limits to decisions from the higher-highers. They are already telling me what underwear to wear, so I'll put the items where I want them in my pockets. I probably have more team resources stored in my pockets on a real dive than the DIR newbies ever know about, in part, because of GI3.
I know of so many excellent DIR-trained educators who have had enough of message boards and forums. I used to get a lot of abuse from my former girlfriend, a top cave instructor trained by most of the world's best in everything she did - including having mostly the origional GUE cave gurus as her mentors, for participating in forums and boards. Personally, I'm beginning to think working out more and participating in boards less (or no longer) would be a better use of time. I love to learn and educate, but the more I learn from boards makes me less inclined to want to educate.
So, the question is, do guys like me bother posting or quit participating in DIR forums where the climate seems to be one that frowns upon debate and is just waiting for Godot to arrive with the latest memo?
By the way, I already know what that memo will contain.
"The faithful?" What is the definition of "the faithful?" Is it those who are new DIR divers and they are convinced they will never disobey a tenet passed down from GUE or UTD HQ because those on top are truly looking out for their safety and well-being? Or, is it those who dive DIR, see it for what it is and do not always tow the party line and "sin" in some ways. I have been wreck diving with one of the best WKPP support divers (Tech 2/Cave 2) who was wreck diving solo, while I had my GUE-F girlfriend as my buddy. That diver would hold more credibility on a board such as this, but while having made the decision to be involved in an organization (two, really) that does not support solo diving, that diver chooses to violate the rules, yet in public, would lie about it to remain in the organization. Divers such as myself, having taken 4 complete GUE courses, yet will admit to doing things other ways, lose credibility in boards when all we are doing is having the courage to admit that we don't always obey the rules. Believe me, the rules are fractured in those most grievous ways by the most credible DIR practitioners, but by keeping quiet maintain deniability. I would say that the newest DIR diver is more "faithful" than those who have most of the answers because those with the answers don't always practice what they preach.
Like any religion or philosophy, the purity of the faith or the belief is often blemished by real-world politics and actions. Even the most well-intentioned people in power cannot keep personal weaknesses, petty personal disputes, and other negatives which impact decision-making out of the game. The Greek philosophers, the early Christian Church, and those in power to state what is and is not the DIR way all have had to face the challenges of humanity meets philosophy meets belief.
If the faithful want to know what DIR is at any given moment, there is only one person to ask and that would be Jarrod Jablonski, since GUE has the ultimate "street cred" on the subject and Jarraod presides over it. Even the top GUE instructors don't always know what DIR is until it is voted upon. A few times each year, GUE has meetings of its top instructors, quality control, board and training committee members to discuss everything related to GUE and DIR. Changes are discussed among the members the same way that a thread unravels information. Maybe the issue is crotch D-rings: in or out? Maybe it is the issue of mask straps being worn over or under the hood? Maybe the issue is training standards: Should there be a gap course between GUE-F and Tech 1? Maybe the issue is a change of standard gases or the procedures for rescuing an unconscious diver. Whatever the issue, the members present their cases for their beliefs on a given subject, most of whom truly believe they are correct about what he or she believes because they are DIR instructors, put a lot of thought into their opinions, and have diving experience to back up their opinions. Once views are presented, the members will vote on what course of action will be taken in the future. The vote is probably almost invariably slanted in the direction JJ would like it to go. Sometimes the way it goes is based genuinely upon a safety concern and other times, something may just be decided based upon the way JJ or another top dog likes to do it despite evidence to the contrary, and other times excellent diving practices are dummied down for students and training, but still used by the top divers on real dives.
There are two DIR's. There is the DIR that is practiced by the top divers of GUE in their real diving and there is the DIR that is passed to students in training that contains a certain amount of C.Y.A. because divers who get injured as a result of training accidents tend to seek legal restitution. Some things are made easier for training purposes when, in reality, a true DIR diver with skill and intelligence would be better off doing something one way that is no longer or never was DIR - not because it was wrong, but because other factors got in the way of approving possibly a better or even best solution.
I know it is frustrating for the new DIR practitioner who hungers for information to find it. Even if you asked a GUE instructor, he or she may need to give you "the party line" answer knowing that there is a better, safer way that may have been shot down. Having friends in the inner sanctums of GUE and UTD for many years, and having friends who left GUE, has allowed me the unique position of being the guy who hears the venting, the crying into the beer stories, and the he said/she said issues they take home from work. I share the same with them about my issues. Basically, the industry insiders gripe to one another because significant others don't want to hear it any more, our bosses don't want to hear it, our co-workers might be friends or enemies, but our friends in other agencies - "the bad guys" are the real sanity check.
Philosophies, by their nature, tend to generate debate. The Greeks, the founders of modern Western philosophy, understood and welcomed it. The Socratic method is an example of necessary and healthy debate. DIR is a philosophy. However, GUE is an organization which sometimes is unable to separate itself from real-world issues when trying to stay true to philosophy. I'm sure there are many things that a guy like JJ with his experience, knowledge and passions for both diving and education would love to share with every DIR diver, but cannot, due to his role of protector of an organization that must guard itself daily from legal concerns.
My very first introduction to technical diving was DIR and GUE a decade ago. In that time, I've seen many changes to lots of small picture matters and just a few big ones. Some have been improvements while others have not. DIR for the cold water diver has improved. Some training standards have not and some things have been dummied down. Many of the changes were legal, not philosophically-based or made with lesser skilled divers in mind. Everything from the size of snaps, to lockdown screws on reels, to whether or not to finger tighten hoses and second stages, to how to tie back up lights, to crotch D-rings in or out, to ... you name it gets changed the same as corporate procedures.
In light of this, the only way for DIR divers to really know what is DIR is to have an official memo. The DIR divers that lurk or participate in these boards may have been DIR divers since the mid-1990's or may have just passed GUE-F last weekend. Those who have been around a long time have seen changes and have not applied them to real dives. How many old guys switched their dive planning to GUE-EDGE from SADDDDDD? Only if taking continuing education, I'll bet! If not sootering, my crotch D-ring gets tucked under the strap. Principle of primacy from 1999 and I don't care if it is a convenient temporary attachment point. My pockets are off-limits to decisions from the higher-highers. They are already telling me what underwear to wear, so I'll put the items where I want them in my pockets. I probably have more team resources stored in my pockets on a real dive than the DIR newbies ever know about, in part, because of GI3.
I know of so many excellent DIR-trained educators who have had enough of message boards and forums. I used to get a lot of abuse from my former girlfriend, a top cave instructor trained by most of the world's best in everything she did - including having mostly the origional GUE cave gurus as her mentors, for participating in forums and boards. Personally, I'm beginning to think working out more and participating in boards less (or no longer) would be a better use of time. I love to learn and educate, but the more I learn from boards makes me less inclined to want to educate.
So, the question is, do guys like me bother posting or quit participating in DIR forums where the climate seems to be one that frowns upon debate and is just waiting for Godot to arrive with the latest memo?
By the way, I already know what that memo will contain.
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