lamont:
I have 28 dives right now, and I take the class in 16 days. :bang:
DIR-F for me?
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I have 28 dives right now, and I take the class in 16 days. :bang:
shugar
Contributor
on a related note then:
i've (out of curiosity) read up on the whole GUE DIR thing aside from stuff like this on the board... my observations (some may be unfounded)
a. it does appear a bit nazi-ish where there seems to be a low regard for the ordinary PADI diver... almost bigotrous i feel
b. it demands a whole "standardized" mindset when it comes to diving
c. there is a great emphasis on safety (w/c is good)
d. it's a whole philosophy/ ideology/ hegemonic way of thinking
so if i may ask then:
it just rubs me the way i had bad experiences years ago with newly converted "born again christians" who would preach you to death to try to convert you and all the "converts" saying it's the best thing that had happened to them... only for me to learn soon thereafter that they went back to "sinning" and were notorious fornicators and drunks...
no offense to BACs... this is my experience...
Jag
i've (out of curiosity) read up on the whole GUE DIR thing aside from stuff like this on the board... my observations (some may be unfounded)
a. it does appear a bit nazi-ish where there seems to be a low regard for the ordinary PADI diver... almost bigotrous i feel
b. it demands a whole "standardized" mindset when it comes to diving
c. there is a great emphasis on safety (w/c is good)
d. it's a whole philosophy/ ideology/ hegemonic way of thinking
so if i may ask then:
- based on this thread, is the DIR-F course more "consumer" in nature than the hard-core techy system the GUE/DIR thing was founded upon?
- is it something that i can take to better myself yet not become a cult member? what i mean here is to take the course to better my "F"... not to become a global u/w explorer or national geographic cave diver
- i'm overweight, enjoy a post dive smoke, enjoy a post-dive san miguel, do not have much time to do real exercise - but want to better myself... will DIR give me the finger and tell me to bugger off?
- i understand the principles of the gear config, but where i come from (and with what i make mumble mumble) i have absolutely no intention to throw half my (perfectly good) gear away... much less have to procure even more expensive gear just to take the class
- is it blasphemous to ask a PADI MSDT or OWSI to teach proper trim and bouyancy and what-nots without resorting to BP/Ws, training regimens and ideological idealism?
it just rubs me the way i had bad experiences years ago with newly converted "born again christians" who would preach you to death to try to convert you and all the "converts" saying it's the best thing that had happened to them... only for me to learn soon thereafter that they went back to "sinning" and were notorious fornicators and drunks...
no offense to BACs... this is my experience...
Jag
JeffG
Contributor
If I was you ...I would just stay away...You seem to have a few chips on the shoulder to begin with.shugar:
jplacson
Guest
a. it does appear a bit nazi-ish where there seems to be a low regard for the ordinary PADI diver... almost bigotrous i feel
- Well, as a PADI student for all my diving... I have to say that in GENERAL... it's well deserved. Although PADI theories are sound and all... their process of certifying instructors isn't very reliable. You'll get some good ones and some bad ones. Attitude not considered... not all PADI instructors are good (or even safe) divers to begin with. I'm not saying ALL PADI divers suck... but a PADI cert does not mean you're a good diver.
b. it demands a whole "standardized" mindset when it comes to diving
-Yes is does... mainly for safety purposes.
c. there is a great emphasis on safety (w/c is good)
-Yup.
d. it's a whole philosophy/ ideology/ hegemonic way of thinking
so if i may ask then:
* based on this thread, is the DIR-F course more "consumer" in nature than the hard-core techy system the GUE/DIR thing was founded upon?
-No it isn't. That's IF you don't really care if you pass or not. Passing (and getting your GUE DIRF C-card) is another story... they will be more strict of course. The principles of even Tech/Cave 1 aren't 'hard core'. It's mainly an attitude adjustment... be serious when the situation calls for it... have fun when appropriate.
* is it something that i can take to better myself yet not become a cult member? what i mean here is to take the course to better my "F"... not to become a global u/w explorer or national geographic cave diver
-YES!!! This is a course I feel all divers should take regardless of skill level... just to get better and have more fun in your future dives!
* i'm overweight, enjoy a post dive smoke, enjoy a post-dive san miguel, do not have much time to do real exercise - but want to better myself... will DIR give me the finger and tell me to bugger off?
-No... unless you intend to take Cave/Tech 1 & 2... trust me... I'm not in good shape either. The swim test almost killed me! hahahaha. The only time they will tell you to bugger off is if you exhibit an unsafe attitude towards diving safety and your buddies.
* i understand the principles of the gear config, but where i come from (and with what i make mumble mumble) i have absolutely no intention to throw half my (perfectly good) gear away... much less have to procure even more expensive gear just to take the class
-although it is possible to still use some of the traditional gear... you'll find that the class will show you all the shortcomings of a lot of the gear you have. They won't force you to change it... but you will not be able to perform as well as if you had the recommended gear. As my instructor said... www.ebay.ph :lol:
* is it blasphemous to ask a PADI MSDT or OWSI to teach proper trim and bouyancy and what-nots without resorting to BP/Ws, training regimens and ideological idealism?
-No it isn't... proper trim and buoyancy are actually in the PADI training manual. The methods are all sound but after you take the class... YOU yourself will see the shortcomings of a jacket BC, floppy plastic fins... and the shortcut over-weighting methods of normal OW courses.
-GUE instructors may or may not point these failures of PADI/NAUI...etc. They usually try to let you compare for yourself. A GUE instructor can maintain proper trim and buoyancy with a stab jacket... I've even see a sad attempt at the backwards kick with split fins (it works... REALLY slow) ... they CAN be done. But that's like using a spoon to dig a pool. It's possible... but why not use a shovel?
The DIRF course is meant to improve your diving experience. Not to turn you into a robot. It's meant to give you, what GUE feels should be, the BASIC skills needed in diving. In my opinion... it gives you CONTROL of yourself underwater.
For those of you who are into cars and racing... it's like comparing the BMW Driving School... to Driver's Ed. Both teach you how to make the car move. One just shows you how to control it better.
- Well, as a PADI student for all my diving... I have to say that in GENERAL... it's well deserved. Although PADI theories are sound and all... their process of certifying instructors isn't very reliable. You'll get some good ones and some bad ones. Attitude not considered... not all PADI instructors are good (or even safe) divers to begin with. I'm not saying ALL PADI divers suck... but a PADI cert does not mean you're a good diver.
b. it demands a whole "standardized" mindset when it comes to diving
-Yes is does... mainly for safety purposes.
c. there is a great emphasis on safety (w/c is good)
-Yup.
d. it's a whole philosophy/ ideology/ hegemonic way of thinking
so if i may ask then:
* based on this thread, is the DIR-F course more "consumer" in nature than the hard-core techy system the GUE/DIR thing was founded upon?
-No it isn't. That's IF you don't really care if you pass or not. Passing (and getting your GUE DIRF C-card) is another story... they will be more strict of course. The principles of even Tech/Cave 1 aren't 'hard core'. It's mainly an attitude adjustment... be serious when the situation calls for it... have fun when appropriate.
* is it something that i can take to better myself yet not become a cult member? what i mean here is to take the course to better my "F"... not to become a global u/w explorer or national geographic cave diver
-YES!!! This is a course I feel all divers should take regardless of skill level... just to get better and have more fun in your future dives!
* i'm overweight, enjoy a post dive smoke, enjoy a post-dive san miguel, do not have much time to do real exercise - but want to better myself... will DIR give me the finger and tell me to bugger off?
-No... unless you intend to take Cave/Tech 1 & 2... trust me... I'm not in good shape either. The swim test almost killed me! hahahaha. The only time they will tell you to bugger off is if you exhibit an unsafe attitude towards diving safety and your buddies.
* i understand the principles of the gear config, but where i come from (and with what i make mumble mumble) i have absolutely no intention to throw half my (perfectly good) gear away... much less have to procure even more expensive gear just to take the class
-although it is possible to still use some of the traditional gear... you'll find that the class will show you all the shortcomings of a lot of the gear you have. They won't force you to change it... but you will not be able to perform as well as if you had the recommended gear. As my instructor said... www.ebay.ph :lol:
* is it blasphemous to ask a PADI MSDT or OWSI to teach proper trim and bouyancy and what-nots without resorting to BP/Ws, training regimens and ideological idealism?
-No it isn't... proper trim and buoyancy are actually in the PADI training manual. The methods are all sound but after you take the class... YOU yourself will see the shortcomings of a jacket BC, floppy plastic fins... and the shortcut over-weighting methods of normal OW courses.
-GUE instructors may or may not point these failures of PADI/NAUI...etc. They usually try to let you compare for yourself. A GUE instructor can maintain proper trim and buoyancy with a stab jacket... I've even see a sad attempt at the backwards kick with split fins (it works... REALLY slow) ... they CAN be done. But that's like using a spoon to dig a pool. It's possible... but why not use a shovel?
The DIRF course is meant to improve your diving experience. Not to turn you into a robot. It's meant to give you, what GUE feels should be, the BASIC skills needed in diving. In my opinion... it gives you CONTROL of yourself underwater.
For those of you who are into cars and racing... it's like comparing the BMW Driving School... to Driver's Ed. Both teach you how to make the car move. One just shows you how to control it better.
jplacson
Guest
shugar:
:lol: I know what you mean. (I pretend to be a closest Satanist to my friends who preach to me... just to annoy them. Hahahaha) This is very different. The die-hard Nazi DIR guys are actually a minority. A loud bunch... which is why they are the ones you hear of the most. But they all mean well.
You have to take the course to understand it I guess. I never got it until I took the course. I was so nervous a few days prior. During the course, you realize that the person that's hardest on you... is YOU.
GUE doesn't want you to go around after the DIRF course preaching to others to take it. If you enjoy it... good. If not... oh well.
All I can say is... pass or fail... it's the BEST investment in diving you can ever make. Whether you decide to move on to Tech/Cave 1... or just want to improve your trim & buoyancy (that's an expensive trim class) ... it's worth it.
shugar
Contributor
chip on my shoulder from being force-preached to? o yeah, big time! hated it then, hate it now
now... how does that relate to my considering DIR-F? get certified first, might give you a better perspective on what we're all talking about here
Jag
now... how does that relate to my considering DIR-F? get certified first, might give you a better perspective on what we're all talking about here
Jag
shugar
Contributor
jplacson:
true... sad, but true...
jplacson:
ok... now that's something to consider...
jplacson:
well, i am the adventurous type, but i don't think i exhibit an unsafe attitude... it's nice to know though that i have to make a major (as in major) overhaul of my life to go diving... i don't need an instructor (GUE or otherwise) to do that... i'm married... nuff said
jplacson:
hmmmm... something else to consider... technically though i still haven't bought my BC and reg... but i got split fins and i know they don't likey that... it's also soooooo much harder to get a rental BP/w and longhose if that becomes the option
jplacson:
ok... so now the bottom line...
how much did your DIR-F course cost? i saw on the website that martin lorenzo is the (only?) GUE instructor in the country... i suppose you did your course with him?
and how much is the gear going to set me back? will i have to sell my daughter into white slavery? pointless to have a c-card but no dive money right?
i'm saying college professor pay, none of that rich-kid-daddy-the-congressman-gave-me-a-beemer-7-figure-trust-fund crap... normal, hardworking, prostitute payscale...
smarter than the above though hehehehehe
Jag
PS
thanks for your input though
jplacson
Guest
Yes, Martin is the only GUE instructor here... but I didn't take it with him. Andrew Geogitsis (one of the original WKPP guys) was here for a couple of weeks, and I took my class with him and Joe Talavera (Pinoy GUE based in the US) ... both these instructors are listed in GUE's site. Andrew's site is www.5thd-x.com The class was about US$350. Considering that a PADI OW course is about P12-15K... and you don't really learn anything... the DIR course is worth it. I'm sure Martin is easy to talk to (I've never met him though) and price and payments can be arranged to be easy for you.
The split fins are tough... you won't be able to do any of the drills sucessfully with them since they are designed for the traditional flutter kick only. I retired my Mares Volos to snorkeling only, and invested in SP Jetfins. I still think SP Jet foot pockets suck and were designed by a moron. :lol: But the fin itself makes a big difference in control.
The reason you can't rent a BP/W setup is that a BP/W rig is tough to keep setting up for new users. Once you have it configured... it's a ***** to readjust for someone new. So you really should have your own gear.
The rigs aren't expensive... unless you go the Halcyon way. But there are so many more options out there. If you go over to www.gue.com and look under Classroom / Equipment you'll see what your rig should be composed of.
There are a lot of local options as well that can bring the price of the BC down. A used BC is also an option. There's very little that can go wrong with a BP. Just check the wing for leaks... and webbing is cheap.
You regulator... you just need to change your hoses. And maybe your SPG... but not really for rec diving.
The split fins are tough... you won't be able to do any of the drills sucessfully with them since they are designed for the traditional flutter kick only. I retired my Mares Volos to snorkeling only, and invested in SP Jetfins. I still think SP Jet foot pockets suck and were designed by a moron. :lol: But the fin itself makes a big difference in control.
The reason you can't rent a BP/W setup is that a BP/W rig is tough to keep setting up for new users. Once you have it configured... it's a ***** to readjust for someone new. So you really should have your own gear.
The rigs aren't expensive... unless you go the Halcyon way. But there are so many more options out there. If you go over to www.gue.com and look under Classroom / Equipment you'll see what your rig should be composed of.
There are a lot of local options as well that can bring the price of the BC down. A used BC is also an option. There's very little that can go wrong with a BP. Just check the wing for leaks... and webbing is cheap.
You regulator... you just need to change your hoses. And maybe your SPG... but not really for rec diving.
lamont
Contributor
The thing about the DIRF course is that invariably you are hardest on yourself. The instructor is there to give pointers and be a good model and most of the learning in the class is just from watching yourself and everyone else. There's very little naziism. Really the DIRF class is just you, a videotape and a standard to judge against. You can go all nazi on yourself if you want to...
The equipment issues and cost can be a concern, but you might be able to rent a BP/W and long hose and try it out during the class.
As far as the "holistic diving" thing and the "standardization" thing, the best explanations I've come across are in these two posts:
http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=145956&postcount=53
http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=146131&postcount=65
Even if you're not trying to do "slick... highly complex and demanding dives" it can still help make the usual dives really easy. And it does reduce planning and help get everyone on the same page. I've been doing more diving with non-DIRFies lately and I've noticed that my predive planning with new buddies needs some help because I tend to assume too much...
The equipment issues and cost can be a concern, but you might be able to rent a BP/W and long hose and try it out during the class.
As far as the "holistic diving" thing and the "standardization" thing, the best explanations I've come across are in these two posts:
http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=145956&postcount=53
http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/showpost.php?p=146131&postcount=65
Even if you're not trying to do "slick... highly complex and demanding dives" it can still help make the usual dives really easy. And it does reduce planning and help get everyone on the same page. I've been doing more diving with non-DIRFies lately and I've noticed that my predive planning with new buddies needs some help because I tend to assume too much...
shugar
Contributor
$350!!! that's about 20k!!! for my 2nd OW/ pre-AOW??? aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaccccccckkkkkkk!!!
ok... so no DIR-F tomorrow... ouch... my bunghole still hurts from that...
but thanks so much for the info... at least i'm informed... makes things clearer somewhat
Jag
PS
do YOU wanna teach me to keep my trim and bouyancy in order? hehehehehe
ok... so no DIR-F tomorrow... ouch... my bunghole still hurts from that...
but thanks so much for the info... at least i'm informed... makes things clearer somewhat
Jag
PS
do YOU wanna teach me to keep my trim and bouyancy in order? hehehehehe
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