DIR equipment: computers?

[Snowbear]

Just a friendly reminder ~ this is the DIR forum where folks can ask questions about DIR, and the hows and whys of DIR diving

as NetDoc says in the sticky at the top:

6) The answers in this forum are member's best attempts to answer questions within, and according the DIR diving philosophy. If you wish to give a non-DIR answer, please do not post it in this forum. If you do not wish your question to be limited to DIR answer, please ask it in another applicable forum.

 

[mweitz]

That is correct Snowbear. As such, I posted the original reasoning behind not using computers in DIR, and compared and contrasted using and not using them in recreational diving profiles. Are you thinking / saying that computers are NOT DIR?

EDIT: Nevermind,

 

[Diver0001]

I think she was after me. I'll drop it. Lamont, if you're interested in responding to my last post I'll ask Snowbear to kick it into another forum. Let me know.

R..

 

[Snowbear]

Diver0001 - yes, I can split this thread if you like... or better yet, why don't you start a new one (though as I'm sure you're aware, the computer horse has been beaten before )

 

[lamont]

From my understanding the original reason the WKPP was against dive computers is that they were expensive and there were better things to do with your money if you didn't already have one.

Go back sufficiently far and they were all Buhlmann "bend-and-mend" algorithms with no deep stops. Thats still basically the same issue that they have these day -- the VR3 doesn't deliver the profiles they want to dive -- although they're closer. Also at that level you have to worry about dealing with a more complicated UI with multiple gas swtiches and more than can go wrong in the usage of the computer, which makes them less attractive. Its no good if your buddy toxes and dies while you were busy futzing with your computer and didn't notice they were on the wrong gas...

 

[radinator]

What's needed is a basic waterproof electronic module that where the user can upload the algorithm to it. Maybe linux based...unless you'd want to trust Microsoft :1poke:

 

[lamont]

What's needed is a basic waterproof electronic module that where the user can upload the algorithm to it. Maybe linux based...unless you'd want to trust Microsoft :1poke:

I admin 12,000 Linux machines. Please, use something more stable like QNX or another purpose-built embedded OS...

EDIT: hmm... well, this post is entirely off-topic for DIR. I guess I could make some analogies with Windows being an air2 and Linux still being like bondage wings... But that still probably doesn't help...

 

[RTodd]

Go back sufficiently far and they were all Buhlmann "bend-and-mend" algorithms with no deep stops. Thats still basically the same issue that they have these day -- the VR3 doesn't deliver the profiles they want to dive -- although they're closer. Also at that level you have to worry about dealing with a more complicated UI with multiple gas swtiches and more than can go wrong in the usage of the computer, which makes them less attractive. Its no good if your buddy toxes and dies while you were busy futzing with your computer and didn't notice they were on the wrong gas...

While the WKPP diving is the source for a large portion of the DIR philosophy, the GUE guys have adapted it for everyone to use. I won't address all of their reasons for no computers, but some of the dead obvious reasons they weren't used for WKPP dives include:

1) No-mixed gas computers at the time.
2) These dives go outside the range of just about any computers ability to handle the calculations.
3) If they failed and you were relying on it, you would be screwed. What is the point of carrying a computer if you need backup tables anyway and you can craft backup tables that get you out of the water faster in the first place.

And, even though mixed gas computers do exist now, these dives still go way outside of their range. Many of the dives are effectively saturation dives and, even if the newer computers allow that much deco obligation to be stored, they tend to way, way overdo the deco on this end of the spectrum. Plus, I don't think there are any computers out there that can handle the number of gas switches. And, no. 3 above is as applicable as ever.

The DIR reason for shunning them is more basic. You have no need for it. We don't even carry din covers on our regs. Why would we turn on an unneeded piece of equipment to subject ourselves to its beeping. Carrying a computer in the water is using a crutch to one degree or another. The point behind DIR is not to use the crutch.

 

[lamont]

I finally found JJ's "bakers dozen" list of reasons not to use a computer:

http://www.divetekadventures.com/Technical_BakersDozenNoComputer.htm

I can boil this down to roughly four categories of reasons:

- user issue
- implementation issue
- UI issue
- expense issue

I think the "why take it if you don't need it?" is another kind of issue which is overlooked on that list.

Theoretically you can have a diver who conscientiously dives such that the user issues are not a problem. If they have disposable income, the expense issue goes away. What's left are the UI and implementation issues. For the implementation issues you can get a flavor of how the implementation doesn't work by reading through GI3's lecture to BAUE and looking for the stuff on deco (and explicitly on computers, but there's more there than just that):

http://www.baue.org/library/irvine_baue_talk.html

Although its all in slightly cryptic GI3-esque recommendations. Has anyone else noticed that reading GI3 talk about deco seems to be like reading Alan Greenspan talking about the economy?

...

What's really funny is that a year ago I actually went through that 'bakers' dozen list, making a point-by-point rebuttal defending why computers were okay for NDL diving as long as you had your brain on. I found that list today when I went to create another temp file to play with that list again by typing 'vi computers' and up popped the list from a year ago. Kinda amusing reading... I don't disagree with anything I wrote a year ago, other than now I've *really* drank the kool-aid and want to take Tech 1 in the future, so the computer needs to get turned off...

 

[Morg_NZ]

The latest halcyon.DIR catalog I got has a pic or 2 with divers with uwatec aladins strapped to there arms???

go figure :11: and I know for a fact the aladin DOES NOT have the option of being gauge.....it's a automatic on {water contact} dive computer!!!!