DIR equipment: computers?

[Charlie99]

if you are comfortable using your computer to figure out your "NDL" and deco for you, as well as keep track your gas consumption, you are probably safer letting it think for you than learning to think through your dives yourself.

That's not what I do.

Everybody seems to think you only have choices A or B. I choose C.

Charlie Allen



A = depth gauge and timer only. track average depth in head.

B = blindly follow computer, paying no attention to whether it makes sense.

C = use the computer as an intelligent tool. Keep track both in your head, and compare it with computer's guess. Computers and tables will only give you limits, you set the actual profile.

 

[Charlie99]

Personally, I also see problems with having your computer as your only depth guage, since sometimes "smart" computers will decide to lock up and not show you anything if you violate their rules. Suddenly, mid-dive, you've got nothing, not even a depth measurement. .

Wrong, wrong, wrong. If you actually know of a specific model of computer that will suddenly, mid-dive, stop giving time and depth info because of deco violation, please tell me.

The vast majority of computers, even when they "lock you out", will still supply depth and time on not only the current dive, but also subsequent ones.

Dive computers, like other tools, need to be understood in order to use them properly.

 

[Diver0001]

Sure, but in the best case, you learn all the skills you need in order to make the AI computer totally worthless. In the worst case, you don't learn those skills because of the AI computer. That doesn't seem to be a good use of money to me...

Ah, the money argument. Sure sign that all the other arguments are used up. So we agree then, Lamont. How you use the tool is important but the tool itself is immaterial. That was a good one btw....."if you use an AI computer you won't learn how to unclip your spg".... LOL. First time I've heard that one.

But you know, we agree about one thing. You reject a computer because you see people using them incorrectly. I also see many people use the computer unwisely. We're seeing the same things but we disagree about the causes.

Let's face it. The DIR view on computers is an ideological choice. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that but there's absolutely nothing wrong with computers either.

R..

 

[Charlie99]

You [Lamont] reject a computer because you see people using them incorrectly. I also see many people use the computer unwisely. We're seeing the same things but we disagree about the causes.

Nor do various people seem to agree on the cure. I guess it is simpler to just totally reject computers than to learn how to use them intelligently.


I see it somewhat like my use of GPS while sailing. I use a lot of visual ranges (two objects in a line) while sailing around the approach to New Bedford, MA harbor and in good weather they are even more accurate and reliable than GPS. But I first developed those ranges while carefully approaching various awash and slightly submerged rocks while checking my position with GPS. Now I rely primarily on visual ranges, and GPS is just along as a backup in fog and rain squalls. Each method is good. Having both is even better.

Another similarity with dive computers is that an uneducated user of GPS is likely to do dumb things like plugging in two waypoints and blindly following the GPS track between them, ignoring the hazards on the track. Dumb, but it's a USER problem, not a problem with GPS that should cause us to totally reject it.

Charlie Allen

 

[lamont]

Ah, the money argument. Sure sign that all the other arguments are used up.

you missed the other part of the point which is that AI is useless if you know what you're doing. don't bring what you don't need.

So we agree then, Lamont. How you use the tool is important but the tool itself is immaterial. That was a good one btw....."if you use an AI computer you won't learn how to unclip your spg".... LOL. First time I've heard that one.

it might seem silly if you're diving in warm waters with thin/no gloves. up here with drygloves its a skill that takes a lot of practice to master. if you can just look at your wrist to see your psi, you don't push yourself to learn.

i have the same issue with my back-kick right now, in that none of the diving i do up here pushes me to learn that one -- although it would come in real handy sometimes when dealing with currents and walls. in talking with a guy tonight on the phone he mentioned that he learned it right away because where he lived you actually had caves and caverns to dive and it was a necessity to master, not just a convenience.

your environment, including the tools that you have available, do affect you...

But you know, we agree about one thing. You reject a computer because you see people using them incorrectly.

i don't reject computers, i wear a computer. i dive with my brain turned on, though. i see zero value add in air integration.

I also see many people use the computer unwisely. We're seeing the same things but we disagree about the causes.

we both see people using computers as a crutch. we actually both agree on the causes, which is the person. i'm just not hung up on defending the platonic moral neutrality of the computer and feel that taking the computer away is a perfectly acceptable way to make the person adapt to not using the crutch.

Let's face it. The DIR view on computers is an ideological choice. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that but there's absolutely nothing wrong with computers either.

the actual DIR view is based more strongly in the fact that there doesn't exist a computer that does deco the way that GUE/WKPP likes to. all of the stuff that we're arguing about now is kind of silly because once you start tech diving using DIR, the computer has to go into gauge mode. it isn't ideology, its the lack of an acceptable tool.

 

[StSomewhere]

after all, the computer calculated my N2 loading for me every 20 seconds or so and accounted for a multilevel profile and multiple dives per day over multiple days

Not that it matters much to this discussion, but any computer of recent vintage is sampling data and calculating nitrogen loading pretty much in real time. The rate that the samples are stored is just a function of how much memory the computer has onboard. Your download may have samples at 20 second intervals, but the display is current. This is true whether you are using it in computer mode or gauge mode.

Well, first of all they don't gain the skill of clipping and unclipping on the left d-ring because they can just watch on their wrist. I've had guys who dive AI complain to me about needing to work on this skill by their own admission.

I guess as long as your first stage(s) supports and it doesn't mess up hose routing you could have the standard DIR "SPG clipped off to the left D ring" and still run the AI (hoseless or not) from another HP port. Probably violates the "less is more" consideration, but matches my buddies "if you don't need it leave it, if you do need it take two" mantra.

 

[Derek S]

the actual DIR view is based more strongly in the fact that there doesn't exist a computer that does deco the way that GUE/WKPP likes to. all of the stuff that we're arguing about now is kind of silly because once you start tech diving using DIR, the computer has to go into gauge mode. it isn't ideology, its the lack of an acceptable tool.

BINGO.

 

[happybuddha]

you missed the other part of the point which is that AI is useless if you know what you're doing. don't bring what you don't need.

Nothing like flogging a dead horse...air intergrated computer is not useless if you don't have an spg clipped off to your left waist D ring, it in fact would be very useful since you won't have any other means of knowing your gas. Point being, there is no relationship between ability to unclip/read spg/make mental calculation/reclip spg and using air intergrated computer.

Its a choice, you choose to dive DIR (as do most people of this particular forum including myself) and others choose to use air intergrated computers. Someone using an air intergrated computer will not need to be able to get to their spg since there won't be one.

 

[Diver0001]

it might seem silly if you're diving in warm waters with thin/no gloves. up here with drygloves its a skill that takes a lot of practice to master. if you can just look at your wrist to see your psi, you don't push yourself to learn.

Maybe your stages are too big. I dive in a drysuit with drygloves on too and don't have any trouble with it even with a 10litre stage. Another alternative is to clip it off on the left strap D-ring. That works like a charm and you don't need to unclip it to read it. I'll admit that I still have a lot to learn but at this point in my development I don't see the need to look for challenges that aren't there. Reading my pressure is functional, nothing more. I really believe more in keeping it simple. If you find reading your spg such a challenge maybe you would benefit from looking at other ways that work better for you. DIR is fine as a basis but the real lesson for you is to stop trying to fit round pegs in square holes. Do yourself a favour and make 10 dives with your spg clipped off on the left strap D-ring. You'll see what I mean. Don't stare blindly at DIR and let it stunt your development. You're probably going to take that as overly confrontational but it's not my intent. I'm just trying to give you a different perspective to look at what you're doing in the big picture.

i have the same issue with my back-kick right now, in that none of the diving i do up here pushes me to learn that one -- although it would come in real handy sometimes when dealing with currents and walls.

If there is no need then why do you bother? Strangely, I find I use the back-kick way more in the pool than I ever do in open water. Become a DM and your back kick will improve LOL

your environment, including the tools that you have available, do affect you...

Absolutely. That's another good reason to deeply consider the origins of DIR as you consider what to use and what to take with a grain of salt.

i don't reject computers, i wear a computer. i dive with my brain turned on, though. i see zero value add in air integration.

I actually agree with you about this.

it isn't ideology, its the lack of an acceptable tool.

In the beginning, yes. In the intervening period it's become another round peg in a sqaure hole. Methodologies like DIR are always slow to adopt new technologies but you'll see all the GUE top are wearing VR3's at some point. Mark my words.

R..

 

[mweitz]

From my understanding the original reason the WKPP was against dive computers is that they were expensive and there were better things to do with your money if you didn't already have one. I personally have my computer on the wrist next to my bottom timer, though I sometimes get guff for it. For recreational profiles diving the DIR way I am always within NDL. It is sort of fun to look at the profile afterwards and see how you did on your averaging and such. I've also "rode" my computer to the limits of NDL and done the opposite, doing the averages afterwards from my downloaded profile. Turns out I still fall into the DIR ranges doing it this way as well.

Keep your mind sharp, use whatever tool(s) that work for you and if you do become DIR and decide to use a computer, bring a bottom timer / depth guage with you and keep in practice knowing how to average your dives and dive the "tables". If you do decide to move into Tech, you will probably bend your dive computer anyway and have to reevaluate at that time ...

Mark