DIR Doing Their Thang!

[detroit diver]

OK, I was asked to weigh in with an opinion here, so here goes. Is it possible to be DIR without benefit of GUE training and/or WKPP membership? Yes, I think it is. GUE's training methodology and philosophy grew out of the Cvae Diving world and WKPP. There were (and still are) a number of non GUE, non WKPP affiliated instructors teaching these same ideas and ideals. When new members are brought into WKPP, we asume they know nothing, no matter what agency thier card comes from or whos name is on it. All "new guys" start at square one and learn to dive as a team using WKPP protocals- it is taught by mentorship. Prior to the existence of GUE, the same things occured (and still occur) within the community of cave divers (as well as communities of wreck divers, etc.). GUE is simply a "one stop shopping" resource for the DIR philosophy.

Let's seperate GUE from WKPP for the moment.

DIR w/o WKPP or GUE training:

Possible yes, but probable? What are the chances that any OW diver has to find one of those instructors that "has the whole package"? How would they know? What would they look for? And what instructor teaches ALL of the tenents of DIR that is (or was) not a WKPP or GUE instructor? MY whole point here is that GUE puts the whole package together, and the chances of it happening randomly are pretty remote. Let's see- there are how many tens of thousands of instuctors out there, and how many of them could teach to your DIR satisfaction?


Back to WKPP:

Wouldn't you say that the WKPP protocols are different from GUE's DIR to some extent? I think that you must be far more rigid due to the extreme dives that you do. To vette your divers is not only wise, but critical.

 

[GDI]

I just read the fundamentals for DIR/GUE sounds like they took what you've been doing with your students and made a agency out of it. Having trained with you I know from personal experiance. Gee Your DIR and you didn't even know it.
OR should I say DIR/GUE are GDI. Sounds alot like common sense diving to me.
But then again I have one of the best instuctors out there teaching me. The only thing they need to work on is equiptment configuration. Maybe you can get them to come to you for some lessons.

Fred

Fred Thank-you for the compliment. My training techniques as you know are the culmination of many years of instruction (not just scuba). My attitude and a willingness to continue learning. There are many Instructors out there, some to whom I have introduced you who are far more experienced in some areas than I am. Your comment on Equipment configs. This is always an on going process of development and improvement. If it fails to improve when we adjust it or change it then we always have what worked before. I have sent e-mails to Mike and Andrew from GUE and I will learn more. Dissemination of information is a good thing-share the knowledge.

 

[GDI]

Right now, I see GUE stuck between a rock and a hard place. They try their best to stick to their guns, at the same time, need resources to further their business... enter Halcyon. :lol:

I think that since the birth of Halcyon... DIR has gotten more 'it's just a marketing ploy' comments than ever before... I can understand why they price things the way they do, right now, I think Halcyon is the major cash flow of GUE and the like. And logically so, if your philosophy is to not accept just anyone to train... then you have to turn to retail to make money.

Now I'm not against Halcyon btw, my entire rig is from Halcyon, down to every bolt and wing nut... not because I think their wing nuts are better than everyone else's... but I simply like their products. I think, a wing is a wing, is a wing. If it doesn't leak... then it's good.

Now, regarding DIR... I have noticed a global trend. DIR divers are viewed as arrogant and irritable (in general) ... my main dive buddies are all DIR. They are all very nice, and accomodating. But the funny thing is, most of the bickering starts from the other agencies who bash DIR to sway students/divers to buy equipement or classes from their own shop. The sales pitch always starts something like this, "Halcyon is too bare bones, you pay so much for so little...look at this new BC we have, same price...but you get more features!" ... OR "We also teach Hogarthian methods... but unlike DIR, we are more flexible so we are willing to learn as well".

It's funny though... I think GUE/DIR/Halcyon people really are arrogant... rightfully so, but still arrogant. And the other agencies play this up and use it to their advantage. As you can see from my signature, I'm not GUE or DIR in any way... yet. But I do applaude them for trying their best to produce the best divers in the world... not just doing a 2-hour cert course...and pushing another diver in the water to make a quick buck.

The one thing I find annoying is that, most OW divers don't have their buoyancy figured out. I still see 'experienced' divers flailing their arms about. I'm not saying all non-GUE divers are bad... there are a whole lot of you out there who are excellent divers... but that's just my point... it's a hit-and-miss thing.

I've dove with much more experienced divers than myself... and I see most of them doing major saw-toothed profiles... one minute their 10 ft below me, the next, 10 feet above me... next their clinging onto a coral to poke a fish trying to hide...etc..etc...

Now, PADI (since I have no experience with other OW training systems) has decent training materials... books, CD-ROMs, videos...etc..etc. They all teach the right things... proper buoyancy, trim, respect for UW life, and all that...and it's all good... LEGALLY. But they don't seem to care whether a student has adopted these lessons or not... as long as you can breathe of your regulator, and can clear your mask... ok, you're certified! Even proper finning isn't stressed... somehow, the dentist in Finding Nemo comes to mind! :lol:

I guess this is why GUE is so strict about DIRF classes and I've heard that some instructors from other agencies fail this class as well... this is probably what brings out a lot of bitterness towards GUE as well.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to say is that most DIR divers are not as bad as a lot of people claim they are...they may not be the most humble people on the planet..hehehe... but they are exceptionally good divers. I haven't seen a single 'bad' DIRF (GUE Tech & Cave divers not included) diver... but I've seen countless 'bad' PADI/NAUI divers, complete with flailing arms, and coral-damaging hands. And for me, they must be good to produce divers that disciplined... I'm scheduled for DIRF next year.

Bravo: I like what you had written

 

[GDI]

This really isn't true. Name a PADI text that explains trim. Name a PADI text that explains the mechanics of trim or the importance of it. Name a performance requirement in any PADI class that requires students to be properly trimmed. You can't because they don't. The texts use pretty colors and good grammer but they are empty of content.

Mike , Are You also including the PADI DSAT publications?

Odd thing here but as much as DIR takes the brunt of these debates So does PADI. Hmmmm - this is OK
Really I think rec and tec agencies can learn alot from one another and probally need to work much closer together. PADI is or will be developing a Full Cave program, How will that compare I wonder?

 

[GDI]

A bit off-topic, a local site here by Philtech Divers (I think they're IANTD) say they don't "Do It Right"... they "Do It Better".

Hm Marketing?

 

[boomx5]

Hm Marketing?

It's called being to smart by half.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike , Are You also including the PADI DSAT publications?

Odd thing here but as much as DIR takes the brunt of these debates So does PADI. Hmmmm - this is OK
Really I think rec and tec agencies can learn alot from one another and probally need to work much closer together. PADI is or will be developing a Full Cave program, How will that compare I wonder?

No, I really wan't thinking of the DSAT materials. I have the book and the standards but haven't looked at them for a while so I won't say too much. I will say, though, that they should remove the picture of the tech divers kneeling in a circle on the bottom from their web site (the "become a tec instructor page). They're going to make folks think that they don't get it.

Cave? I haven't looked at the trimix class but I really don't want tp see them get into cave training. I think one of the problems with dive training in general is that we've sold it as safe to the general public. You know all the people who freeze in their cars if some one pulls out in front of them. We've made it fast, easy and accessible. I won't market diving any more after what I've seen the last couple of years. If some one approaches me for training I'll consider it. This used to be the policy in the cave community.

In cave diving I think we're already seeing an increase in certain types of accidents. I think if we make a big business out of it we''re likely to loose accesss to the few caves that we can dive. And then there's the potential for damage to the caves. I see a lot of face prints in the silt at Peacock and marks in the clay in Cow. I think divers who aren't ready are already beeing taken in. I'll admit that my point of view is partly selfish but the big agancies have already made the other local sites undivable. They turn 80 ft vis into 3 ft in a half hour. The caves are among the few places I can go. If PADI gets in there and fills the caves up with people I'll have to quit diving.

 

[O-ring]

No, I really wan't thinking of the DSAT materials. I have the book and the standards but haven't looked at them for a while so I won't say too much. I will say, though, that they should remove the picture of the tech divers kneeling in a circle on the bottom from their web site (the "become a tec instructor page). They're going to make folks think that they don't get it.

More along these lines, the Dive Today program on OLN tracked someone through TDI Trimix training the other day. It wasn't the most horrible thing I had ever seen until they swam to the top of the wreck, kneeled down on the deck, and started passing second stages back and forth. I mean come on...doing the same skill as OW at 200' on the deck of a wreck is hardly the point here.

 

[GDI]

No, I really wan't thinking of the DSAT materials. I have the book and the standards but haven't looked at them for a while so I won't say too much. I will say, though, that they should remove the picture of the tech divers kneeling in a circle on the bottom from their web site (the "become a tec instructor page). They're going to make folks think that they don't get it.

Cave? I haven't looked at the trimix class but I really don't want tp see them get into cave training. I think one of the problems with dive training in general is that we've sold it as safe to the general public. You know all the people who freeze in their cars if some one pulls out in front of them. We've made it fast, easy and accessible. I won't market diving any more after what I've seen the last couple of years. If some one approaches me for training I'll consider it. This used to be the policy in the cave community.

In cave diving I think we're already seeing an increase in certain types of accidents. I think if we make a big business out of it we''re likely to loose accesss to the few caves that we can dive. And then there's the potential for damage to the caves. I see a lot of face prints in the silt at Peacock and marks in the clay in Cow. I think divers who aren't ready are already beeing taken in. I'll admit that my point of view is partly selfish but the big agancies have already made the other local sites undivable. They turn 80 ft vis into 3 ft in a half hour. The caves are among the few places I can go. If PADI gets in there and fills the caves up with people I'll have to quit diving.

I have to look at their trimix book a little closer a friend of mine has one so I will do just that. PADI has a first class media dept however that doesn't mean that dept has tecs in it to pick up something like that up. They can have all the greatest written material in the world but then one bad example illustrated in a photograph can depart from all that is written. A picture being worth a 1000 words. As for cave they will need to approach their training methology differently than what it is for OW.
When you think of the picture analogy , instructors may provide excellent academic classes and predive briefings for the pool or OW, but if they themselves don't illustrate good dive practices then all the acedmics and briefings could be for not, again a pic worth a 1000 words. We must learn never to pass a fault.

 

[roakey]

They can have all the greatest written material in the world but then one bad example illustrated in a photograph can depart from all that is written. A picture being worth a 1000 words.

How about TWO bad examples?

This is PADI's idea of skills for someone becoming a tech instructor...

http://www.padi.com/english/common/courses/tec/tecdeepdiverinstructor.asp

Roak