digital or film??

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Wyno once bubbled...
"An article floating around several news sites including Pacific Business News is that Nikon are about to stop producion of their 35mm compact camera range and go all digital. The Tokyo-based Nihon Keizai Shimbun broke the story from company sources in its Thursday editions. Though the company said no decision has been made yet, the newspaper said production is being halted and shipments to stores will stop in a few months."

I heard this too, and it's not surprising at all. Nobody I know bought a point-and-shoot film camera recently. There is no reason to, as you can get great 4*6 prints with digital cameras, and 2Mpixels will look great on the screen.

On the other hand, film still has enough advantages on the higher end, that it will stay around for a while. Me, I'm waiting for a full-frame DSLR that I can use my Nikkor lenses with, that's under 2K. :D
 
Back to original question, I have a Canon s30 and I like it because it fits in my BC pocket. I know it's questionable whether I should be putting it in there (whole other thread), but sometimes I do during the dive when I just want to look around and forget about taking shots.
I just like the fact that if I want / need to for any reason, I can put it in my pocket out of the way, I've seen some Olympus cams that are too big for that.
 
Wyno once bubbled...
"An article floating around several news sites including Pacific Business News is that Nikon are about to stop producion of their 35mm compact camera range and go all digital. The Tokyo-based Nihon Keizai Shimbun broke the story from company sources in its Thursday editions. Though the company said no decision has been made yet, the newspaper said production is being halted and shipments to stores will stop in a few months."

Well, Nikon isn't that well known for making point and shoots. So it isn't really a big suprise. There big money is 35mm SLR's.


And from SSRA

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Mverick, Don't give me this snooty attitude about film. If I have to try to compose a picture through a viewfinder to be artistic then I don't give a crap about your version of artistic. Other people can try to compose, work on lighting, and get the best angle possible regardless of the format. Just because the medium is different does not give one the license to be artistic or not. Just because it is easier does not mean that you can't be artistic. The ability to get instant feedback certainly helps to get a better looking composition but just because you can't view your picture right away, you would have to be much better photographer than me to get one really good shot as far as composition, lighting etc is concern but it certainly does not automaticallly give you any artistic anything!
For your artistic vision to be true, I think you need to bring down some clay with you so you can sculpture the perfect replication of what you see rather than the fake 2 dimensional slide.
You choose a more difficult method of taking pictures as your preference, good for you, however there is no reason to talk down other formats with ridiculous statement like this.

Sorry I generally am pretty tolerable but blanket snooty statement like this really annoys me.
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Take a photo class. Guess what. They want you to think about what your shooting. So you learn how to shoot. Not just take 1000 shots and pic the best. So you can shoot 24 and get 1 to 2 outstanding pics. With that I'm happy. And with a digital. Once you learn this. You actually can increase your quality.

I see so many pics from would be photographers in real life. That look like crap. One I know of now is of a girl and she's selling it for small posters. It's a High Key. White background. She's in a White Bra and Panties. Only problem is he didn't use High Key lighting and got shadows. Which is Kinda OK. But one of the shadows is between her legs and looks like what a man has between his legs. And she didn't notice. And he didn't notice. And they have around 2000 of these printed up. And this guy considers himself a PRO. She's been selling them at a Club she works at. Not a strip joint. And giving them out to promote herself. I guarantee, other photographers laugh when they see it.

Blanket snooty statement????

It's facts. Learn how to shoot. Don't just point it and blast away. That wastes just as much time. And pics. Sure you have 1000 pictures. With the shading or lighting off. But you like them. People need to slow down. And shoot what they want. Not just anything that moves.

That's the problem with Digital now. People don't think about what they shoot. They shoot and then think.

And I said. It's a good medium to learn with. Great for Amateurs. Instant gratification. As long as they learn how to shoot. And don't just blast away. But Right now. It's quality isn't what Film is. Not for the same price. Not even for double the price.

And by the way. ART MAKES YOU THINK. Thats it. Whether it's good or bad. But you have to be thinking about your shot when you do it. Not just blasting away.
 
annie once bubbled...
Back to original question, I have a Canon s30 and I like it because it fits in my BC pocket. I know it's questionable whether I should be putting it in there (whole other thread), but sometimes I do during the dive when I just want to look around and forget about taking shots.
I just like the fact that if I want / need to for any reason, I can put it in my pocket out of the way, I've seen some Olympus cams that are too big for that.

The basic problem that you have with all "BC pocket" UW cameras is a lack of adequate strobe.

To keep this non-technical, you need a strobe for UW so as to restore colors. Otherwise, most of your images will look very blue no matter how much photoshop retouching you do. The problem is that the tiny little strobe on all pocket cameras (including both digital and film) barely has enough horsepower for simple scenes on land, and when you go UW, water absorbs light roughly 4x faster than on land.

As an experiment, try taking some flash photo's in a semi-dark room. Vary the distance to your subject (have them hold a sign with the distance for each shot), and figure out at what distance the illumination looks overexposed, great, good, okay, so-so, and bad.

Review the shots and take what you picked as the "great results" distance and divide it by 4. Roughly speaking, this is the distance that your camera should work fairly well UW.

But now here's the gotcha: what's the camera's minimum focus distance? It doesn't do you any good to take well-illuminated photo's if they're going to be out of focus, just as it doesn't do you much good to take in-focus pictures that are too dark.

Personally, the only time that I'd even bother with an UW camera that doesn't have a good UW strobe is if I'm snorkling (as was the case here: http://www.huntzinger.com/photo/2002/galapagos/021202.2-2.jpg).




-hh
 
Mverick, it seems that you just don't get it. Just because people have digital camera, it does not mean that they just shoot away without any thought whatsoever. Just because we are not bound by the limitation of film camera ie limited to 36 pictures, no instant feedback, it does not mean that we don't think before we shoot.
Some people may do what you say with digital camera and some people with film camera also just keep shooting away until they run out of 36 exposures with no thought whatsoever, so what's the difference?
I don't want to start a flamewar but when you just give a blanket statement that people with digital camera can't think, don't think, don't have any artistic element because of the way you assume we all shoot, then I call that a snooty blanket statement or should I say ignorant and narrow minded statement.

Art make you think but film does not make you think better than digital, it is the photographer who thinks, not the camera nor the format. Better format ie better resolution, color, contrast does not make you more artistic either, you work within the limitation of your chosen format to create art, be it film, slide, digital, water painting, charcoal painting, crayon whatever. I don't pretend to be a great artist but at least I don't rule out the possiblity of anyone's creativity because he or she chooses one medium over the other.

I will concede that shooting film is more challenging technically. But if being more technically difficult is being more artistic, why don't you just shoot one picture per dive, heck one picture per trip, that way you can really get your artistry to blossom.
 
Mverick once bubbled...

Blanket snooty statement????

It's facts. Learn how to shoot. Don't just point it and blast away. That wastes just as much time. And pics. Sure you have 1000 pictures. With the shading or lighting off. But you like them. People need to slow down. And shoot what they want. Not just anything that moves.

That's the problem with Digital now. People don't think about what they shoot. They shoot and then think.

Amen. This has been a problem for years, and one well-known industry quote is: "the difference between an Amateur and a Pro is the size of their trash bin".

The other thing we need to consider while taking a bazillion photo's in a "Million monkeys typing Shakespear" -like attempt to accidentally get one good one is our photo's subjects:

Envision yourself as a little reef critter who is discovered by a photographer - - every photo causes stress, and digital photography now allows for an order of magnitude increase in photos if we're falling into the trap of being a Shakespearian Monkey Typist. From a photography ethics viewpoint, you need to limit your number of photos in due consideration of the subject's sensitivities, regardless of if your technology allows more. Pragmatically, this mandates the practice of good, careful composition to minimize your photography's effect on the natural environment.

FWIW, the exasperation of this problem from digitals has already been written up in various reports (IIRC, I think I saw it over a year ago on the UW-Photo LISTSERV discussion group).



But Right now. It's quality isn't what Film is. Not for the same price. Not even for double the price.

Previously, I've done my own research and have considered the performance cross-over between digital and film to be around 48 Megapixels. However, this does include some assumptions on my intended application (which is far beyond mere webpages or 4x6 prints).

Nevertheless, some recent reviews I've read on the new Nikon and Canon 11MP SLR's are claiming them to be equivalent to a high quality scan of film. Granted, we don't have to lose resolution of the film by scanning it -- we can go directly to print via traditional analog optical means, but it does tend to indicate that the effective digital equivalency to film is closer than we may have previously thought.

The catch is, of course, that the new 11MP SLR's aren't $500 or even $1000...figure $7K for the body, plus lenses, plus strobes.

The alternative is to take (keep) whatever 35mm system you like, and to go digital on your PC, make a choice:

a) Spend ~$7/slide at your local camera shop to have them scan it for you. At this price, you'll typically get the lossy .JPG format.

b) Spend ~$25/slide at your local professional studio services shop for a high-quality scan. This will be delivered in non-lossy formats (typically Photoshop).

c) Spend ~$250 for a 2700dpi USB single-frame scanner (various makes), and scan to your heart's content.

b) Spend ~$1500 for a Nikon LS-4000 film scanner with the 50-slide bulk feeder accessory to your home PC. The reason for the big price jump here is that the extra feature you're adding is the ability to set the PC up for unattended scans of multiple slides: at bedtime, you can throw a stack in, execute a macro and come back the next morning to review the work. Having scanned in dozens of slides one at a time, I can assure you that if you don't go this route, you will be very picky about what you scan...which per the above "trashcan" adage, isn't necessarily a bad thing!


-hh
 
Argh; edit gone bad...

I intended to add to the above that the "Bad Apples" already exist, and have been noticed by others.

Granted, not everyone has "trigger finger" syndrome, but a lot of people have the potential, because a very commonly stated Advantage that you hear about going digital is 'more photo's', which means that the tempatation and tendency are already present.


-hh
 
I've taken underwater film stills for 20 years. I've recently compared my shots with another diver while we were on a liveaboard. It was pretty even. We both had good strobes. I still throw away most of my pics and scan in the good ones. I almost bought the Fuji S2, but I heard this spring the S3 might be out. You are talking multiple thousands for camera, housing and strobe. The market has to calm down and come out with full frame CCDs so that you could use a lens in the manner in which we have been accostumed to using them to really make the switch worth while.
The thought of being able to delete what you don't want is exciting.
The last 10 years I've only used Velvia, nothing else comes close for film underwater.
Still, I'm biting my nails waiting for a full frame digital to house....Hurry up you Techies!!!

Caymaniac :D
 
i dont normally get into this type of match because each side says they are better but i want some clarfication

-hh where did you get those numbers or calculations to get a XX mp = film, because i can get slides(24x36mm slides on kodak E100 VS or any other slide film i prefer) made from 1800x1200 pixel file and it is the same with all of the other slides i have above or below the water.

2 nikon doesnt have a 11 mp camera there latest is the D2h which is a 4 mpx camera.


next would be were did you get the information that strobes cause stress to animals , because i would love to see that report or study

maverick what do you have against digital, did you buy one of the early ones that sucked and have been jaded ever since.

I shoot both film (color and B&W, slide) and digital and i know how to use both i understand the limitations of my equipment and how to use it. Yes digital can be used for rapid fire but most of the time it turns into junk, but it can be used to produce some very good images, take a look at the latest day in the life book (africa i think) it was shot totally on digital using oly E-20 and c5050, and those images turned out great and they had several NG photographers on that assignment and some people who had no background in photography.

phtography is evolving, nothing stands still forever
 
If as you say you have digital that are as good as film I would love to see some of your, work film and digital to compare. I have just started with film and would love to go to a little digital if the quality is as good as film.
 
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https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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