Devil's Ear Cavern?

[merkin]

I can appreciate your point, but it comes across to me as sanctimonious and idealistic in regards to human nature. It's analogous to people who think teaching abstinence to teenagers (and Africans) will prevent STDs/HIV infection and unwanted pregnancies.

I think some cavern/cave transitions are less tempting than others. For example, I am sure I am not the only one that has seen many open water divers on holiday weekends well into Ear and Eye.

 

[DeepSea]

I can appreciate your point, but it comes across to me as sanctimonious...

I do not see how you can in any way view that point as "holier-than-thou"!

 

[scubafool]

Almost every cavern that I have been in has a cave section that is very tempting. In just about every imaginable case, education about just how hazardous cave diving can be is the best way to keep divers within the limits of their ability. That is not idealistic, that is just doing the best we can. People are going to do what they are going to do

 

[in_cavediver]

II think some cavern/cave transitions are less tempting than others. For example, I am sure I am not the only one that has seen many open water divers on holiday weekends well into Ear and Eye.

Yes, and you realize that the OW divers lack the basic knowledge of risks that is taught to cavern divers? I would far rather see a cavern diver at the far edge of the cavern zone making an informed and calculated decision than an OW diver making the same decision at the entrace to the cavern zone.

Its all about risk assessment and a properly trained cavern diver will be able to make an informed decision based on risk assessment. (since they were taught it). We may not agree with it but humans sometimes do very foolish things, even when they know the risks. (think smoking and yes I know its addictive but hey, so is cave diving). OW divers usually don't even have enough information to know how bad of a decision they are making when it comes to overheads.

 

[Johnny Richards]

....but it comes across to me as sanctimonious and idealistic in regards to human nature....

I certainly wasn't pretending to be holy or pious, affecting righteousness (Websters- "sanctimonious") and those of you who know me would probably not use the word "idealistic" in a description of me.

I do, however, deal with adults who I trust to follow the guidelines that have been very clearly detailed at length. While it is true that some will always choose to ignore the rules, I believe that most of the cavern/cave divers with whom I have dealt behave in a responsible fashion and dive within their limitations. Maybe that is idealistic, but I would hope not. My expectation is that the majority of divers understand that the risk doesn't justify the benefit and recognize the need for additional training when that time comes. For those who don't, ................

If I really believed that most divers were simply agreeing with me while in a course and then diving as they chose without regard to limitations, I would find something more productive to do with my life.

Anyway, dive safe and have fun,

Johnny

 

[Dive-aholic]

I can appreciate your point, but it comes across to me as sanctimonious and idealistic in regards to human nature...

If you knew Johnny you would know that is the farthest thing from the truth.

 

[karstdvr]

If you knew Johnny you would know that is the farthest thing from the truth.

I agree with that

 

[CoyKoi]

...Devil's Ear is a dangerous place for cavern divers because around that left turn is a beautiful long tunnel that is extremely tempting to just go a bit further.

Welcome to SB, Johnny. My husband and I took your Cavern course last Feb. We use the skills -- and safety mindset -- we learned in that course everytime we don a tank.

Are cavern -- or any non-cave certified -- divers immune to the siren call of the tunnels at the bottom of Devil's Ear? Of course not! I heard the tunnel sweetly calling my name when Johnny took us down for our last dive of the cavern course. Did I heed the call? No, because our instructor taught us well and I had the good sense to pay attention. Next time I hear the tunnel whispering to me to "come in a little further, just a little further", I will be cave certified and respect the limits of my training and experience.

I encourage all OW divers to take at least a cavern course from a certified cavern/cave instructor and continuously practice the skills learned in this course. The Ginnie Springs community does a fine job educating divers how to safely dive its natural wonders. I hope its around and open to divers of all skill levels for a long, long time.

 

[Tegg]

I can appreciate your point, but it comes across to me as sanctimonious and idealistic in regards to human nature. It's analogous to people who think teaching abstinence to teenagers (and Africans) will prevent STDs/HIV infection and unwanted pregnancies.

I think some cavern/cave transitions are less tempting than others. For example, I am sure I am not the only one that has seen many open water divers on holiday weekends well into Ear and Eye.

What keeps you from going beyond the cavern zone?

Have you ever dove beyond your training "limits".

Look, reality is simple. If someone is taking cavern, why not take them somewhere they can "see temptation" for cave? Reality is they will not have an instructor holding their hand after cavern certification. Thus they need to be trainined to "know" when to stop their dive and turn around.

What happened to personal responsibilty for one's own choices to knowingly go beyond one's training?

You might as well blame OW instructors for the same thing when they take students on wall dives... I mean hell, they're training them in an environment where they "could" be tempted to go beyond training limits... :shakehead

 

[Doubles]

What keeps you from going beyond the cavern zone?

Your training

Look, reality is simple. If someone is taking cavern, why not take them somewhere they can "see temptation" for cave? Reality is they will not have an instructor holding their hand after cavern certification. Thus they need to be trainined to "know" when to stop their dive and turn around.

I had cavern training there, I found it very educational. It has what I considered a decent flow, it was a great place to experience flow at the floor and no flow at the ceiling. It definately reinforced the cavern zone for me. And, no that cave was not calling my name I had no desire to go there.

Yep we (cavern students) should receive training on the boundries of cavern, but that should be any cavern and I think that a well trained cavern diver would recognize right off that Devils Ear is a small cavern and short of practicing in a flow, you certainly are not going to see much since your at the boundary as soon as you get inside.

What happened to personal responsibilty for one's own choices to knowingly go beyond one's training?

I think accident analysis has already answered this question

You might as well blame OW instructors for the same thing when they take students on wall dives... I mean hell, they're training them in an environment where they "could" be tempted to go beyond training limits... :shakehead

I always thought that the biggest differences from ow/aow divers and a technical diver of any technical discipline were

1. training
2. not having to prove anything to anyone (check ego at the dock)
3. recognizing your level of experience and training and to dive within those limits

Yes ow divers go where they shouldn't go. We had a snorkler die this year going where he should not have been. But we are not ow divers.

IMHO the more training you have, the more you should be able to control that desire to exceed your training. Better yet, not to even have a desire to exceed that training or skill set. This should not be confused with one's desire to further oneself with training and experience.

I want divers to dive with me, not for me.

All of this said, I do believe that there is a cavern zone in Devils Ear, its just really small