demonstrating OW skills ...

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm splitting this off from the PADI divemaster thread because I think it's a worthwhile topic. I'd like to start by responding to the following ...

Why would you not, at the very least, show your students how the skill would ACTUALLY be done in the water rather than plant yourself on the bottom and show them a poor example. Those students learn a lot more through imitation and example then you imagine. To be quite honest I truly wish a few of my earlier instructors had been better role models to me at the time.

So perhaps I am missing something regarding the benefit of demonstrating skills negatively bouyant and on your knees.

I do think there's value in showing students how the skill should actually be done. I also think there are valid reasons for having the students at least starting out negatively buoyant and on their knees.

When I was a DM, I worked with several different instructors doing OW classes. Most demonstrated the skills on their knees, and justified it by saying that the students needed to see the skill demonstrated as they were expected to do it.

I think most instructors are taught this way, and believe this is the correct approach. I did too ... not considering any other approach ... until I worked with an instructor who did it a bit differently.

He would explain the skill to the students, and have them watch him and his staff demonstrate the skill while on they (the students) were on their knees on the bottom of the pool. He and his DMs would then demonstrate the skill while hovering ... to show the students what the goal was. He explained that by the end of the course, the students should be able to do the same, but that for now they would do the skill while negatively buoyant and kneeling. We'd work on neutral buoyancy later in the class, and combine the skills before class was done.

I don't think teaching OW students to perform skills on their knees is a sign of laziness or lack of skill ... I think it's a good first step in a progression that leads up to being able to do them while maintaining buoyancy. However, there's value in having the instructor demonstrate those skills in a hover from the onset. As noted above, students learn through imitation ... so why not establish right away that divers don't typically do anything by kneeling on the bottom, and that having them do so in the pool ... and/or on the first OW dive ... amounts to "training wheels". We expect them to work on the hover, and demonstrate that they can manage to at least attempt these skills from a hover before this class is over.

I think that's a pretty good approach ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[jbd]

I also think there are valid reasons for having the students at least starting out negatively buoyant and on their knees.

I disagree. I think students should start out properly weighted and in a horizontal position from the very beginning. One reason was noted by Scuba_freak in the other thread--basically kneeling in shallow water is a real chore. So much easier to just lie down and not have to worry about trying to balance oneself.

Most demonstrated the skills on their knees, and justified it by saying that the students needed to see the skill demonstrated as they were expected to do it.

Here again I disagree. I expect to see the student perform the skills as they are diving. I like to see masking clearing while "underway" and also while hovering.

He would explain the skill to the students, and have them watch him and his staff demonstrate the skill while on they (the students) were on their knees on the bottom of the pool. He and his DMs would then demonstrate the skill while hovering ... to show the students what the goal was. He explained that by the end of the course, the students should be able to do the same, but that for now they would do the skill while negatively buoyant and kneeling. We'd work on neutral buoyancy later in the class, and combine the skills before class was done.

This is much better than what many students get.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well, I became an instructor without ever having to demonstrate that I could do any of the standard skills midwater myself.

It wasn't until I had some experience and spent some time actually seeing the results of the way that we teach that I even thought of demonstrating skills midwater or having students do them midwater.

We could argue all day about whether having students on their knees to begine with is a good idea. As I see it though the important thing is that they don't need to be on their knees at the end of the class...or ever again.

 

[ScubaFreak]

The way I've approached it, is by learning one skill at a time and combining those skills when learnt, i feel works a whole lot better than trying to teach someone 3 brand new skills at once.

I completley agree with the fact that horizontal is the ideal position to be in- that's the way we dive right?
Although the way I introduce it is after a few skills, before we go for our first swim around. I have been known to have an unusually tall student lie down and put some air in his BCD as it's kinda pointless when he kneels down and his head and chest are out of the water...

Instructor experience is another point. Me for example, im teaching for 2 years and a DM a year and a half before that, and I find that I teach very similiar to the way my instructor teaches (PADI MI). It works so thats why I didn't change it.

But by starting the students by lying horizontally (providing I have sufficient assistance) will be a way i will introduce my new students to the water.

I do feel however that it's nothing to do with laziness or lack of skill. I firmly do the kneeling out of safety for a student, it gives me more control over them and for the first few nights, thats whats important to me.

Scuba_Freak

 

[Rick Inman]

I'm wondering, are there any instructors currently teaching all skills mid-water, without even doing the diver's prayer (kneeling on the pool bottom), or fin pivots? If so, what are the challenges/benefits?

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

For me it's a safety thing. I don't want a nervious student hovering with an instructor who is also hovering and then bolting for the surface dragging us both up. Sometimes the strongest student panics, not often, but sometimes.

I want them on the bottom during required skills, frimly on the bottom and I'm overweighted 5 pounds to make sure I can slow their ascent.

As I stated in the other thread I demonstrate skills while neutrally bouyant in the first pool session, at the conclusion, then I encourage them to try it themselves but I do not and will not require that.

I feel lawyers would have a field day if I required it.

A large majority of my students are capable of doing this though but not all are. At the very least they've tried it and will work on it.

 

[jbd]

I'm wondering, are there any instructors currently teaching all skills mid-water, without even doing the diver's prayer (kneeling on the pool bottom), or fin pivots? If so, what are the challenges/benefits?

I don't use kneeling at all nor do I use the fin pivot. Reality is though, the students must be in contact with the bottom to start with since they have no previous training to start with.

At the start of the class they are in the shallow end(3 feet) and have done mask skills and regulator skills until I feel confident that they will not have a problem with them once they move to the deep end. I start tehm on the buoyancy control game straight away but part of their instructions are to do mask skills asn regulator skills while doing the game.

Mask and regulator skills are continued throughout the course as new skills are added.

Challenging for the students--yes
Benefit to the student--a real sense of accomplishment.

Challenging for me--not really, people are much more capable than we give them credit for.

Benefit for me--OW cert dives that are 50 to 60 minutes long with students divers that can maintain depth and follow the plan. Its also really cool when the swim across a quarry using the compass and arrive at the destination they were shooting for.

 

[MikeFerrara]

For me it's a safety thing. I don't want a nervious student hovering with an instructor who is also hovering and then bolting for the surface dragging us both up. Sometimes the strongest student panics, not often, but sometimes.

I want them on the bottom during required skills, frimly on the bottom and I'm overweighted 5 pounds to make sure I can slow their ascent.

As I stated in the other thread I demonstrate skills while neutrally bouyant in the first pool session, at the conclusion, then I encourage them to try it themselves but I do not and will not require that.

I feel lawyers would have a field day if I required it.

A large majority of my students are capable of doing this though but not all are. At the very least they've tried it and will work on it.

IMO, being able to do diving things where we do diving...midwater is what will prevent a diver from getting hurt...hence preventing me from ever having to be in front of a lawyer.

You'll have a lot harder time holding a student down if they're pushing off the bottom.

I don't require the first attempt at a skill (especially the skills that must be learned early inorder to prevent drowning) be performed midwater but before I issue a card it needs to be because that's what diving is.

 

[derwoodwithasherwood]

I don't think teaching OW students to perform skills on their knees is a sign of laziness or lack of skill ... I think it's a good first step in a progression that leads up to being able to do them while maintaining buoyancy.

Like training wheels?

 

[ScubaFreak]

I'm wondering, are there any instructors currently teaching all skills mid-water, without even doing the diver's prayer (kneeling on the pool bottom), or fin pivots? If so, what are the challenges/benefits?

I assume ur asking the benefits of teaching mid water?

I would say that it's more realistic, a student probably isn't gonna be kneeling on a reef to clear a mask etc..

But i'm the divers prayer through and through, trying to integrate some mid water skills.

SF