DEMA Seminar - How to Avoid Litigation from Scuba Intros and General Instruction

[CCRDolphinDiver]

I was present at the "seminar" and here are my opinions on it.

The whole thing was a rather poor attempt to garner sympathy for his (Lessor's) justifications about the lawsuit concerning Ann Jordan. He spent at least 15 minutes telling the room just how great he is. He avoided almost all of Brian Cronin's questions, hiding behind "law". (One question was "how much money did he make suing dive related companies", and the answer he gave was "I cant tell you because in the judgment there was a non disclosure clause. However, he could have easily told his salary, as opposed to the amount of the award" However the .pdf of the fancy cars says he is very rich indeed.
We (finally) heard about what happened on the case, and its obvious that the DM who led the DSD was not only stupid, but incompetent as well, he did most everything wrong. However, in the end, the problem that eventually killed Ann, was, in fact, an accident. I expect that there was not any malicious intent involved, otherwise it would be a criminal case.
I was disgusted at the amount of chest pounding, and preening that Rick did from the podium and not surprised at the number of people that walked out half way though his "seminar". Supposedly there will be a video of this posted on the net, so you can see for yourself.
In my opinion, this kind of lawsuit will only trigger others and it will not be positive in any way for the dive industry. Think about it, the DM in question, and his wife, were preparing to buy the shop that the DSD was scheduled through, and they were the ones targeted in the lawsuit. I have no idea of their financial situation, but if its anything like most of the people I know that have dive shops, it wasn't great. These people were sued for something over 7 figures, and you know they don't have that kind of money. Rick maintains that the suit is good for the industry, as it promotes better behavior from instructors and the like, but those poor saps are not likely to feel the sting, as its the insurance companies that are really getting sued, and that means ALL OF US have to pay the bill. So no matter how 'good' we are, someone is reaching into our pockets for a screw up, that was perpetrated somewhere across the planet. Its always the bottom 5% that cause the problems for the rest of us. To sap a struggling industry of its money, and its members enthusiasm with a lawsuit of this magnitude are the actions of a parasite that kills its host. My girlfriend and I have dreamed of owning a destination resort, and frankly, this hour and a half scared the crap out of us. You spend your whole life building something, and then some bas-tard driving a 6 figure car (as a daily driver, thanks for that info JS) snatches it all away because of an accident, then parades around on a podium calling himself a "Super Lawyer" because he is "proud" (his words) that he could right this so-called wrong in the industry. Now that the industry has piss-ed off MR Super Lawyer, he has even more justification to become an enemy of the average scuba diver and fully embrace the other side. This guy is going to be a problem for every honest instructor and DM on the planet, while he happily lines his pockets with the proceeds of our life's work.
Anyone who is involved in a scuba accident, will most likely be punished for life, by their own regrets, if they are even remotely human. If they are a sociopath, they wont feel anything regardless of the award of the lawsuit. The only real beneficiary of this type of lawsuit, is the lawyer(s). None of the rest of us gain anything from these attacks on the industry. Guys like Rick are the reason instructors in the USA have to pay 800/year for insurance, when you see Rick, be sure to thank him for reaching in your pocket.
Ron Micjan
DEMA 09
Orlando, Florida

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Not seeing the presentation I can;t comment on it's content. But I hope to be able to view it. But if what CCR Dolphin Diver posted is correct I see nothing wrong with any action that will lessen the unsafe practices and incompetent DM's/ AI's/ Instructors/Dive Ops using and perpetuating them. Some people should not be on scuba or in many cases in the water period. That someone died as a result of one of these DSD's that are in some areas akin to Russian Roulette except the person with their finger on the trigger does not even know it is not a surprise. That there are not more lawsuits is. As to the insurance remark I always felt that those rates should be based on the level of training that the instructors have, the level they are required to teach to, and the standards of the agency involved. If the agency standards are low they should pay more. If they allow non swimmers to become divers then they pay more. If they do not address fully the risks involved in the sport then they pay more. No different than car insurance. I live in a rural area. Less risk than say NY City. So I pay less for the same coverage. I do hope someone posts Ricks presentation.

And why should he answer Cronin;s questions? And how many left because they were scared that he was talking about practices they actually use? Why didn't someone ask Brian how much he made by the dumbing down of courses and people pushed through who were barely competent to be in the water? I'd like to know that. How many of his agency's divers were involved in accidents that could have been totally prevented by better training and higher exit requirements for OW divers? I personally know of more than few based on witness statements, autopsy results, and questions on this board.

 

[PRL]

OK, you can't just drop this here without giving us more. Why do you suspect that there might be legal proceedings as a result of this presentation? Was there any type of confrontation during the seminar?

Phil Ellis
www.divesports.com

While at the seminar, I got an impression that some sort of maneuvering was taking place. For instance, the nature of explanation why there will be no q&a at the end of the seminar.
Unfortunately the presentation was stretched beyond the 1 hour expected, and many participants had to leave at the end of the hour to attend other scheduled seminars, and missed the explanation, and some strong statements just before the conclusion of the presentation.
I personally came to the conclusion that it would be best for my interests not to form any sort of an opinion before the whole video becomes available to the public. The link to the video was on the material given to all participants, however I do not have the material in front of me.

Simple fact that this topic on this forum (specifically post #37) also was in the material given at the presentation makes me want to be very careful as to what I say or write. The post was very on topic of the presentation. However it made me realize that alot of "brass" might be reading this forum


BTW, I am in no way tied to any of this, and my opinion is just that, an opinion based on my layman observation of the presentation. I simply am an innocent bystander that walked in on something thats way over my head.

I' am sure that MR. Lesser will do everything he needs to do to make the video of the event available next week for everyone interested.

 

[deco_martini]

So what was the main bullet point in the presentation on how to avoid lawsuits? Or any bullet point. All this talk about videos and slides and I still haven't heard "what was the main thing you can do to avoid being sued?".

 

[CCRDolphinDiver]

So what was the main bullet point in the presentation on how to avoid lawsuits? Or any bullet point. All this talk about videos and slides and I still haven't heard "what was the main thing you can do to avoid being sued?".

Read my post above, this may have been the title, but I told you what the seminar was about, grandstanding and justifying. The main thing you can do to not get sued, is to not teach scuba. These guys flat out said, "We will sue anybody in this room" You could have the best paperwork, the finest instructors, the most maintained equipment and the best insurance, and all it would take is to have someone on staff, who has a bad day, and takes his eyes off of a DSD student for 10 seconds, and your whole life could be ruined. You could wake up one morning and have Mr. Super Lawyer knocking down your door demanding everything that you have worked your whole life for. Of course, he gets paid a third of what he takes from you. These people have removed the word "Accident" from the english language. It no longer exists for them, someone WILL be at fault.

 

[PRL]

So what was the main bullet point in the presentation on how to avoid lawsuits? Or any bullet point. All this talk about videos and slides and I still haven't heard "what was the main thing you can do to avoid being sued?".

There was a David Letterman list " Top 10 reasons a Diving Pro gets sued" and it was worked into the 2 specific cases that were covered. The main case had 6 out of the 10 points.

But it was very clear that this presentation was a response to Mr. Cronins letter. All Questions in the letter were responded to, So I guess the letter is the main bullet point

 

[Johnoly]

There was a David Letterman list " Top 10 reasons a Diving Pro gets sued"

I also attended the seminar. I don't have a 'side' in the debate, but I did take away 2 very important points from it.

1. If you are going to be a buddy, then you dang well sure "be a buddy" and don't ever get out of sight, nor reaction time distance. This goes for non-pro divers also. If you are not going to be a buddy or are not willing to have the boat assign you a buddy, you need to make it loud and clear so almost everyone on the boat hears you.

2. The 2nd point that was brought up ( and I need more clarification) was that dive charter boats are also covered under maritime law not just state law. The example used was most Florida boats don't fly the required blue alpha flag, just the Red white stripe flag. This was an area of concern if another boat was to hit one of your divers and claim he didn't see the blue alpha flag outside of 3mi state or possibly in international waters. Again, I may have mis-interpeted what was said and need more info.

I ignored the letter and stuff, it's not my fight.

 

[royalediver]

I know both Rick Lesser and Steve Hewitt. After Lesser's presentation Hewitt (PADI's defense attorney) approached me and declared BS. He said that Lesser was intimately involved with PADI and had a long standing friendship, and traveled the world with Cronin. We all know that, giving that kind of relationship, all kinds of business and legal discussions will take place. Ideas and issues would be discussed in detail and "dirty laundry" would be presented for a friends advice. I tend to agree with that position. That would give an unfair advantage to Lesser in a lawsuit. Understand that the system is set up as a game and rules are in place.

I had a discussion, over drinks, with two attorneys who are divers over the issue of the instructor who "was abandoned by his buddy" Their position to me it that if you are an instructor your liability never goes away, even if diving for pleasure. Once an instructor, always an instructor. It validated why I never got my got my instructor card. I viewed it as a liability, not an asset.

 

[Leadking]

I was present at the "seminar" and here are my opinions on it.

The whole thing was a rather poor attempt to garner sympathy for his (Lessor's) justifications about the lawsuit concerning Ann Jordan. He spent at least 15 minutes telling the room just how great he is. He avoided almost all of Brian Cronin's questions, hiding behind "law". (One question was "how much money did he make suing dive related companies", and the answer he gave was "I cant tell you because in the judgment there was a non disclosure clause. However, he could have easily told his salary, as opposed to the amount of the award" However the .pdf of the fancy cars says he is very rich indeed.
We (finally) heard about what happened on the case, and its obvious that the DM who led the DSD was not only stupid, but incompetent as well, he did most everything wrong. However, in the end, the problem that eventually killed Ann, was, in fact, an accident. I expect that there was not any malicious intent involved, otherwise it would be a criminal case.
I was disgusted at the amount of chest pounding, and preening that Rick did from the podium and not surprised at the number of people that walked out half way though his "seminar". Supposedly there will be a video of this posted on the net, so you can see for yourself.
In my opinion, this kind of lawsuit will only trigger others and it will not be positive in any way for the dive industry. Think about it, the DM in question, and his wife, were preparing to buy the shop that the DSD was scheduled through, and they were the ones targeted in the lawsuit. I have no idea of their financial situation, but if its anything like most of the people I know that have dive shops, it wasn't great. These people were sued for something over 7 figures, and you know they don't have that kind of money. Rick maintains that the suit is good for the industry, as it promotes better behavior from instructors and the like, but those poor saps are not likely to feel the sting, as its the insurance companies that are really getting sued, and that means ALL OF US have to pay the bill. So no matter how 'good' we are, someone is reaching into our pockets for a screw up, that was perpetrated somewhere across the planet. Its always the bottom 5% that cause the problems for the rest of us. To sap a struggling industry of its money, and its members enthusiasm with a lawsuit of this magnitude are the actions of a parasite that kills its host. My girlfriend and I have dreamed of owning a destination resort, and frankly, this hour and a half scared the crap out of us. You spend your whole life building something, and then some bas-tard driving a 6 figure car (as a daily driver, thanks for that info JS) snatches it all away because of an accident, then parades around on a podium calling himself a "Super Lawyer" because he is "proud" (his words) that he could right this so-called wrong in the industry. Now that the industry has piss-ed off MR Super Lawyer, he has even more justification to become an enemy of the average scuba diver and fully embrace the other side. This guy is going to be a problem for every honest instructor and DM on the planet, while he happily lines his pockets with the proceeds of our life's work.
Anyone who is involved in a scuba accident, will most likely be punished for life, by their own regrets, if they are even remotely human. If they are a sociopath, they wont feel anything regardless of the award of the lawsuit. The only real beneficiary of this type of lawsuit, is the lawyer(s). None of the rest of us gain anything from these attacks on the industry. Guys like Rick are the reason instructors in the USA have to pay 800/year for insurance, when you see Rick, be sure to thank him for reaching in your pocket.
Ron Micjan
DEMA 09
Orlando, Florida

A true accident is one that happens unexpectedly despite everyone doing everything correctly. When you are behaving in a professional capacity, your customer is paying you to guide him through the activities in a prudent and responsible manner. While I do not agree with some of the outcomes of Lesser's cases, I believe that negligence should be punished. You should not fear going into business. Be a professional. Understand your capabilities, be properly trained, and behave like a professional. I manufactured equipment for 30 years and paid my liability insurance plus a large umbrella policy and never was even threatened with a lawsuit. I am sure all of us can point to individuals who behave in an unprofessional manner and we look the other way. Maybe we need to understand that they put all of us at financial risk.

 

[jaycanwk]

I would be very interested in viewing the video of that seminar.

Is someone here going to be posting a link when available?

Thanks in advance.

Jason